Hi again,
FOB:
That's the way i have done it for years, but now i am looking
for a quicker method that doesnt take too much hand drawing.
Only more recently used the computer printout though. Years
back i used graph paper.
Now i want it to be faster, or at least where i dont have to
do as much so i can do other things while the pattern is
being ironed (transferred). This is my goal i guess.
ame:
Oh i see ok. Well maybe a bigger iron would help. It would have
to cover the whole board i guess. Maybe a sheet of steel with
the iron on top.
philba:
I might have to try that paper, sounds nice and cheap.
How much was the laminator and how hard to modify it?
Blue transfer paper
laminator was on the order of $60. The mods are some where on the internet. I didn't find them with a quick qoogle but they are probably out there somewhere.MrAl wrote: philba:
I might have to try that paper, sounds nice and cheap.
How much was the laminator and how hard to modify it?
By the way, I did find this page http://www.pulsarprofx.com/PCB/a_Pages/ ... tions.html
it has some tips on using an iron.
This page has a laminator for sale for $69 but I'm not sure they still sell it. Contact them http://www.pulsarprofx.com/PCB/a_Pages/ ... cator.html
By the way, the laminator I mod'd is a GBC as well. It took 0.032" PCBs no problem but choked on the normal .064 ones before the mod. The mod consisted of switching some gears around (to slow it down) and adding a spacer to increase the gap between rollers. I recall that I would have prefered to use a speed control on the motor but it seemed to work OK.
Mr Al,
I've been using Press-n-Peel since it was released, and with dependable and repeatable success. There are a few pitfalls I've run into and they all can be resolved easily. We tried the paper/toner route and it does work, but the added layer of film from the PnP makes for a better finish and a reliable process.
Cut the board stock over sized and trim to guide lines after etching if size is critical. It's easier than fussing about a little slipping when the board is being processed. I clean the boards with a Scotch-Brite industrial pad, it is red or brown not the grocery store variety, since it is more abrasive. Wash the board in hot water with a minimum of liquid detergent, and rinse well. Do not towel dry, it leaves lint! Warm air dry and do not touch the copper surfaces. Rinse with alcohol and air dry just before applying the PnP.
I do not run the PnP through the laser printer. After the design is printed on paper, or overhead transparency sheets if you are front side back side confused, run it through a copier. Since the toner density can easily be changed, I use as dark an image possible without a dirty background. I don't want to waste a full sheet of PnP for a small board so I run a sheet of paper through the manual tray feed of the copier then tape a piece of PnP over the image and run the sheet again. If the PnP leading edge is well taped, rarely is there a feeding problem with the copier.
Never, or at least since the early constant failures, use a clothes iron. It simply has too many variables. Instead I use a pouch laminating machine. The one I use came from www.usi-laminate.com/ and it is similar to their current mid-priced units. If I have to replace this unit the heavy duty unit may be a good choice. The big-box office store units usually are not hot or powerfull enough to handle the board thickness. Do not use a standard laminate pouch carrier, it is too thick and robs heat. I use common bond paper.
Pre-heat the cleaned board by passing it through the laminator first then attach the PnP with tape folded over only at the leading edge. Place between bond paper sheets and send it through one time. Try to use the center of the rollers since the pressure can vary at the edges if you have a wide unit. Remove the bond paper and put just the PnP and the board through several times, flipping the board over on alternate trips since your machine may have only one heater, either under, or over the board. If the board is small, use a single sheet of bond paper to help carry the board through, or use a pusher, a thin piece of card stock behind the board. Run the bonded hot board under cold tap water and the PnP will pop off. You may, on occasion, have a blemish because of bad cleaning or a board defect but just touch it up with a waterproof felt tip pen (Stanford) before etchng. Most times there are no defects.
Experiment with the board stock and change the temperature and passes as necessary. Once success is obtained, it will be repeatable. We had one lot of board stock that was hard to get good imaging. Etching them for short time before the wash and alcohol rinse added surface toothing thich solved the problem.
Got a big failure, remove the PnP with solvent, clean and do it again.
I gave up on Ferric Chloride etching years ago and only use ammonium persulphate, in a heated and bubbled tank . Ammonium persulfate is certainly cleaner, you can see the board progress and better judge the wasted chemical quality by the color change. Ferric chloride is cheaper but if you ever dump the tank over you'll never be the same!
If you don't remove the PnP until after drilling It is easier to see the centers of holes, and if the PnP is left on a board to be stored, it will retard oxiation! Lacquer thinner, MEK or acetone will all remove the PnP traces but I find that Goof-Off, a paint clean up product, removes the film with little mess compared to the others.
I make many pre-production, and some low volume production boards this way as well as all one of a kind boards. The smaller boards are in a matrix then cut apart after drilling. It saves loads of turn around time and cost for medium density boards. Nothing beats a commercial shop for high density double sided boards though.
Note:
I've also tried PnP to make a 'silk screen' with limited success. Decal sheets were also tried with good appearance but not quite right. Any stories to do 'kitchen table' board screens out there?
Hope it helps,
Len
I've been using Press-n-Peel since it was released, and with dependable and repeatable success. There are a few pitfalls I've run into and they all can be resolved easily. We tried the paper/toner route and it does work, but the added layer of film from the PnP makes for a better finish and a reliable process.
Cut the board stock over sized and trim to guide lines after etching if size is critical. It's easier than fussing about a little slipping when the board is being processed. I clean the boards with a Scotch-Brite industrial pad, it is red or brown not the grocery store variety, since it is more abrasive. Wash the board in hot water with a minimum of liquid detergent, and rinse well. Do not towel dry, it leaves lint! Warm air dry and do not touch the copper surfaces. Rinse with alcohol and air dry just before applying the PnP.
I do not run the PnP through the laser printer. After the design is printed on paper, or overhead transparency sheets if you are front side back side confused, run it through a copier. Since the toner density can easily be changed, I use as dark an image possible without a dirty background. I don't want to waste a full sheet of PnP for a small board so I run a sheet of paper through the manual tray feed of the copier then tape a piece of PnP over the image and run the sheet again. If the PnP leading edge is well taped, rarely is there a feeding problem with the copier.
Never, or at least since the early constant failures, use a clothes iron. It simply has too many variables. Instead I use a pouch laminating machine. The one I use came from www.usi-laminate.com/ and it is similar to their current mid-priced units. If I have to replace this unit the heavy duty unit may be a good choice. The big-box office store units usually are not hot or powerfull enough to handle the board thickness. Do not use a standard laminate pouch carrier, it is too thick and robs heat. I use common bond paper.
Pre-heat the cleaned board by passing it through the laminator first then attach the PnP with tape folded over only at the leading edge. Place between bond paper sheets and send it through one time. Try to use the center of the rollers since the pressure can vary at the edges if you have a wide unit. Remove the bond paper and put just the PnP and the board through several times, flipping the board over on alternate trips since your machine may have only one heater, either under, or over the board. If the board is small, use a single sheet of bond paper to help carry the board through, or use a pusher, a thin piece of card stock behind the board. Run the bonded hot board under cold tap water and the PnP will pop off. You may, on occasion, have a blemish because of bad cleaning or a board defect but just touch it up with a waterproof felt tip pen (Stanford) before etchng. Most times there are no defects.
Experiment with the board stock and change the temperature and passes as necessary. Once success is obtained, it will be repeatable. We had one lot of board stock that was hard to get good imaging. Etching them for short time before the wash and alcohol rinse added surface toothing thich solved the problem.
Got a big failure, remove the PnP with solvent, clean and do it again.
I gave up on Ferric Chloride etching years ago and only use ammonium persulphate, in a heated and bubbled tank . Ammonium persulfate is certainly cleaner, you can see the board progress and better judge the wasted chemical quality by the color change. Ferric chloride is cheaper but if you ever dump the tank over you'll never be the same!
If you don't remove the PnP until after drilling It is easier to see the centers of holes, and if the PnP is left on a board to be stored, it will retard oxiation! Lacquer thinner, MEK or acetone will all remove the PnP traces but I find that Goof-Off, a paint clean up product, removes the film with little mess compared to the others.
I make many pre-production, and some low volume production boards this way as well as all one of a kind boards. The smaller boards are in a matrix then cut apart after drilling. It saves loads of turn around time and cost for medium density boards. Nothing beats a commercial shop for high density double sided boards though.
Note:
I've also tried PnP to make a 'silk screen' with limited success. Decal sheets were also tried with good appearance but not quite right. Any stories to do 'kitchen table' board screens out there?
Hope it helps,
Len
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Engineer1138
- Posts: 458
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:01 am
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
- Contact:
Success!
I'd forgetten about my test boarduntil I read this thread again and I just jumped up and tried it. Had a small SMT prototype layout on blue PnP sheet waiting for a few days and I just cleaned (anhydrous alcohol) and sanded (200 grit) and then cleaned the board again and after ironing I have an almost perfect transfer except for one small spot that I can fix easily. This is an SMT board with .05 pitch components and it looks great.
It really was amazingly easy and sanding the copper is what made all the difference!
This is turning out to be a pretty good evening. I also got stovetop SMT soldering to work first try (I don't have an electric skillet, so I used 1/4" aluminum sheet on an electric stove element).
I think it's time to kick back with a Leinie's Honey Weiss
I'd forgetten about my test boarduntil I read this thread again and I just jumped up and tried it. Had a small SMT prototype layout on blue PnP sheet waiting for a few days and I just cleaned (anhydrous alcohol) and sanded (200 grit) and then cleaned the board again and after ironing I have an almost perfect transfer except for one small spot that I can fix easily. This is an SMT board with .05 pitch components and it looks great.
It really was amazingly easy and sanding the copper is what made all the difference!
This is turning out to be a pretty good evening. I also got stovetop SMT soldering to work first try (I don't have an electric skillet, so I used 1/4" aluminum sheet on an electric stove element).
I think it's time to kick back with a Leinie's Honey Weiss
Hi again,
Philba:
I might have to try that at some point then i guess. Right now
however i dont want to have to shell out any more money for
a while. I just recently bought a few things to make this method
work like the laser printer.
Lenp:
Thanks for the detailed writing there. I think that helps to clear
things up a bit too. Im going to be experimenting in the future
with this paper and see if i can get the results to improve.
Engineer:
Congrats!
Enjoy your drink too
maybe soon i'll have one also.
Philba:
I might have to try that at some point then i guess. Right now
however i dont want to have to shell out any more money for
a while. I just recently bought a few things to make this method
work like the laser printer.
Lenp:
Thanks for the detailed writing there. I think that helps to clear
things up a bit too. Im going to be experimenting in the future
with this paper and see if i can get the results to improve.
Engineer:
Congrats!
Enjoy your drink too
maybe soon i'll have one also.LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
I think having the board really clean is the key.
I do my boards with a different process. I use positive sensitized boards and create my artwork and print the pattern on a clear transparancy. I found an inkjet printer that works excellent(Epson R200). I expose the boards, develop,etch,drill and tin plate.
I have found if I'm not careful and allow my fingers to touch the surface before the drilling process, it affects the quality of pattern in the exposing and etching process.
After etching I remove the resist with acetone, then drill. Then if I clean the surface real well with windex glass clean the tin plating goes on excellent.
I do my boards with a different process. I use positive sensitized boards and create my artwork and print the pattern on a clear transparancy. I found an inkjet printer that works excellent(Epson R200). I expose the boards, develop,etch,drill and tin plate.
I have found if I'm not careful and allow my fingers to touch the surface before the drilling process, it affects the quality of pattern in the exposing and etching process.
After etching I remove the resist with acetone, then drill. Then if I clean the surface real well with windex glass clean the tin plating goes on excellent.
Hi there k7,
Everyone seems to be saying that, and although i thought i had
the board clean there is the possibility that there was residue left
behind so the very next board i do is going to get cleaned with
the utmost care. I might try and find my older iron too which
i think gets hotter than the new one.
Everyone seems to be saying that, and although i thought i had
the board clean there is the possibility that there was residue left
behind so the very next board i do is going to get cleaned with
the utmost care. I might try and find my older iron too which
i think gets hotter than the new one.
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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