Will cars ever run on pressurized air?

[haklesup]

FWIW. Here are some more references showing that the car is not just a figment of the inventors imagination.

This page summarizes their road test results from a series of 4 prototypes
http://www.theaircar.com/tests.html
THe first prototype did perform poorly (~ 7 miles) but they have made progress and show it here, Almost 200miles).


This page shows a some of the math behind it but unfortunately it is in Spanish, Anyone care to give a review in english for us?
http://www.motordeaire.com/ficha.html

If it is a sham, the Mexican government sure will look the fool with its order for 40,000 taxis.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car1.htm

Mosty we have been looking at the compressed air car but here is another technology that uses liquid Nitrogen. Similar in principal in the power plant but requiring additional expansion stages before the motor. The most obviouis differencees lie in the way you fill up and what kind of tank you need.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car2.htm

[fripster]

so here goes my 'adiabatic' remark

BUT
when a tank gives us 54MJ of energy, and the average 'push' necessary for this car is about 500N (my estimate...your mileage may vary) then follwing W=Fxs (work is force times distance) gives us a distance of 54e6/500=108000 meters or 108 kilometers... pretty close to the real thing. (NO! I did not choose 500N to get to 108 kms! this was a real 'educated' guess!!! i do not like cheating, not even to 'win' a debate'!)

any remarks?

fripster

[Chris Smith]

Reality stops here when people cant do the simple math of cost, not efficiency of work.

Feels soo good??

No it doesn’t, it costs like hell to run and there is no way around that.

Name one person here that will pay between $12.00 and $25.00 an hour just to run a car having a motor with a Horse power rating of 50 hp?

[and probably a price tag of 50 to 100k]

If that is too expensive to run, you can always chose the Mini bike or the Go cart versions, having a power economy in the 5hp range.

Only cost a buck or two per hour to run but its too small to drag around large tanks that last any real time.

Lets make a list and see?

Then we will see how many like that other idea,.... free air,... you know, the concept here?

No one said it cant be done, that much was achieved more than 100 years ago.

The only issue here is where do you intend to get all this free air to drive your motor.

[Times millions of cars a day.]

They prefer to sound technical as if the motor works,.... well duhh, .....it worked 100 years ago making their specs completely moot.

The specs of driving a motor aren’t even relevant, since they already work.

But at WHAT COST AND PRACTICALITY, is the only real issue.

You want gold at the end of the rainbow, move to Ireland.

No one will step up to the plate here any more than any one else will do the simple math of the cost, why, because every one here just purchased a copy of Dorothy’s shoes and they feel if you just click them together three times, all the real issues will disappear. They wont.

Fair market values is just a figment of my imagination??

By the way, Mexico has some of the worlds largest oil reserves, so if they want to trash their market value of turning gas into clean Air to clean up MC, Im sure the worlds worst polluted city like Mexico City can afford to convert gas into wasteful air.

And PS, while the Dick Cheney’s and Enron’s of the world lie to you, steal your money blind, shut down 17 refineries just to hike up the price of gas into the $3.00 a gallon range, .......Caracas Venezuela is paying 17 cents a gallon.

Tell that to your representative in DC.

So rather that discuss the obvious cost of making air, why don’t we hear of the color of the shoes bought, and how many times you must click them together to white wash the obvious?

[fripster]

@chris: I beg to differ. The MDI car costs about 10k$ and for the compressed air: As it is fairly simple to have an offline compressor around your house that is compressing air for you while you are not driving, and as it is also simple to power this compressor by solar cells and/or windmill I do not see (besides the initial investment) why this could not be cost-effective.

We are talking about 230V x 16 A x 5.5 hrs = 19kWh. This can be nicely put out by a moderate size solar and or wind setup. Futhermore, 19kWh cost about 19 x 0.20 euro = 3.8 euros (~ 5$) per fill, that yields a cost of 5 dollarcent per kilometer. This is much cheaper than any fossil fuel driven car.

Care to comment?

Fripster

[Chris Smith]

Nothing you tweak will change the facts.

19kWh.

Is 25hp/hour before losses or less than 16 hp back. Mini bike time.

In the US that at least 5 bucks/ hr for 16 hp Vehicle, dragging what weight?

With out loss, which happens to be greater than 66% by the way, one hp/hr in to the tank and one hp/hr comes out of the tank.

Its that simple.

50 hp/hr in for one hour, 50 hp out for one hour, times the cost of electricity at 746 Kilos per hp/hr in.

Cant change that no matter how much you Enron the books. Not today, not ever.

Then take your figures and multiply them times the real time world losses [+66%] and again, you cant change that either.

And solar to wind power costs even more, you cant change that.
.
80 cents worth of compressed air is at best 5 hp for one hour. [Much less in reality]

The cost of the car is doubtfully cheap, but no doubt at 80 cents per refill it’s a great Great Go cart with its 5 hp/hr?

Real cars, tiny ones with 50 hp are exorbitant at best, and you cant change that either espicially with the types of fantasy above?

80 cents is way beyond a sick joke.

Your under the delusion that you will get more energy out of the air tank than you put in?

It cant happen.

A 75 hp motor charging the tank for one hour will give you back only 50 hp per hour of stored air, and then 33% loss when you go to use it, leaves you with 33 hp for one hr. Simple facts of physics.

These are the most basic facts of physics. Ask any first year student.

It will Cost 75 hp times 746 watts per hour in, and then some just one way, and even more the other way out.

[Even wind generators still cost the same and more]

Call it watts, HP, dollars in per hp and hour,... and remember it will be even less power out to come.

You know the cost of one HP per hr in, so now do the math and your return will be even less.

Cant change these facts regardless of the air quantity or pressure.

HP /Hr in, .....HP/ Hr out and available. [plus lots of loss]

[rshayes]

fripster,

I doubt if home recharging would be practical. Compressing air to this extent will require a multistage compressor with cooling between stages. A five stage compressor would be limited to 75 percent efficiency, six stages would be limited to 78 percent efficiency, and a seven stage compressor would be limited to about 81 percent efficiency. Interestingly enough, the maximum air temperature during compression would be less than 200 C.

Similar efficiencies would probably apply to the motor. There would be a trade off between efficiency and complexity, so a four or five stage motor might be a reasonable design. Ambient air could be used to warm the air between expansion stages.

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--

[rshayes]

The problem with an on board pump is complexity. Some form of multiple stage pump is probably necessary. A single stage, 300:1 adiabatic compression results in some impressive temperatures and pressures (above 2600 C and 40,000 psi). A multiple stage pump, where the air is cooled between compressions is more efficient and greatly reduces the maximum temperature. This is more complex, and I would have my doubts about such a system for home recharging or on the vehicle itself. There is an old principle with the acronym KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Adding heat to the air between expansion stages in the motor can be used to increase efficiency of the motor. Solar heat could be collected for this purpose by using a circulating liquid system to transfer heat from the roof to the motor. Another possibility would be heat pipes. Solar panels with a small storage battery could be used if electric power is needed. The solar panels could be used as a heat absorbing coating for the heat collector. This would also keep the solar cells cool and allow more efficient operation of the solar cells. Silicon is dark in the visible and near infrared, which makes it a good absorber for visible light. It is transparent for wavelengths longer than one micron, which means that it does reradiate the heat very well. This is a good combination for a heat absorbing coating.

[Chris Smith]

More fantasy and guess work.

Too bad the math and realities of it all keeps you silly and posting more nonsense.

But then No one expects reality from a person who doesn’t even have a clue as to how a combustion engine works, or some one who is so wrapped up in the sales pitch of the web.

You say it all and don’t even see it.


Air pressure, not heat, drives the internal combustion engine

I had already wondered about the feasibility of an onboard pump run by solar, to keep the tanks topped off. If you could pull it off,...

Right up there with gold at the end of the rainbow.

I cant wait to find out where those 80 cent a bottle refills come from to drive your air powered cars.

So what is the percentage of renewable resources currently in use in this country?

Cant wait to see how far that drives your car, even if your steal 100% of those resources for your spectacle.

Another wanna bee Rockafeller.

[Dimbulb]

I would like to read The stories written bya reputable third party.

I would like to see a contest between electric hybrid and rotary air hybrid.

while it is possible I am not sure of the merits yet

[Chris Smith]

I totally agree because way too many here are too lazy to find out these simple facts on their own, that or they need an interpreter.

A third party is the only way to end the loudest and uneducated detractors here.

I wont be changing a thing because I took the time to learn it all back in the 70s, when too many here were still in diapers.

Any first year 8th grade science book will clear up all of their B.S..... But I already suspect that some here have done some of their home work [all that silence?] and realize that they were backing the Dead horse any way.

If they haven’t, shame on them, they are neither a scientist, engineer, or even a student of learning.

They are just lazy and ignorant, plain and simple.
.

Remember Ignorance needs company to exist, [sorry Im not looking for any] and what the loudest detractors here have to say along with their cronies pretending is some of this, the basics, and dead wrong at that. Its not even in our milky way let alone here on planet earth.

[Ill leave out his name just below, wishful thinking is a forgivable human error]

ABSURD.....
With reasonable power cost the energy cost for refilling a tank might be in the 60 to 80 cent range.

and


Author positronicle
Posted: 08 Jun 2007 08:15 PM Post subject:

Air pressure, not heat, drives the internal combustion engine.

and this they STILL claim is reality?

But now they want to lead the crusade for Air Power, with out having a clue how the basics even work?

All the quotes on the web wont help one bit.

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--

[Chris Smith]

WE, .....I didn’t know you carried around a rat in your pocket?


The Only silence I hear is yours.

NOW,..Your silence has been a boon, now keep it up and keep your foot out.

Don’t pretend, don’t ask others for help when “You Don’t Get Itâ€

[rshayes]

The "ideal gas law" and the definitions of work, isothermal, and adiabatic are all covered in the freshman Physics and Chemistry courses required at colleges awarding scientific or technical degrees. The mathematics required to calculate work is covered in freshman Calculus. These courses are required for graduation, along with several years of English courses (at least in an english speaking country).

The posts that Chris has made on this thread alone are entirely sufficient evidence that he never completed a college degree. His writing is so poor that he probably would not have been admittted in to any college unless there were special circumstances. Even then, the college would require him to take remedial English classes until this was corrected.

With evidence like that, who needs a Ouiga board?

[Chris Smith]

The posts that Chris has made on this thread alone are entirely sufficient evidence that he never completed a college degree.

Evident, with batteries in your Ouija board...???

Even then, the college ...

Which one, which country, don’t be too dumfounded here and at what year, and don’t choke on the century like the moron YOU are!

GEE, assume like the ass hole you are, but then what’s new>>>


Get new batteries, dip squat.


Your Ouija board is indeed with fresh batteries, and you are stupid as a moron can get.

What’s new?

Your guess work, my education, and every thing else is at best,...... gas coming from your bean intake.

Try some peppers to relieve your brain farts, no promise?

What is new.

Stupidity loves company so we will hear for the “Dain Brammagedâ€