I need your help, any advice will be appriciated

[ezpcb]

Hi all,<p>We (www.ezpcb.com) decide to advertise on both Nuts & Volts and Servo Mangazine, Maybe start from July. I know very limited information on the PCB market of US and Canada, I think advertising (of course excellent quality and competitive price as well) will bring me more customers, although I'm not sure, but I think it's worth trying. Could you please kindly give me some advices on how to do the business in your country? Shall I find some dealer or importers? or do you think there's little chance for me and I should give up trying? any advice will be appriciated. <p>Many thanks to you all<p>If this message is not OK to post here, board master please delete it, thanks!<p>Mike

[philba]

This is a timely post. I was looking at using your service but found it a bit hard to understand how I would actually do it.<p>Here is how I think about using a service:
- is it easy to understand the order process?
- how will I pay?
- how do I submit my order?
- how are errors handled?
- is the company reliable?
- how will I get the product?<p>
Perhaps the biggest issue I have with your service is delivery. I've ordered from Hong Kong before and that did work but I don't have a sense for other parts of China. <p>The confusing point for me is how I submit my order. Having a very detailed, step-by-step (and well documented) process would really help. For example: gerbers, which orientation (reversed or not), standard drill sizes, and so on. Even better (for me, anyway) would be to take Eagle files directly. I guess Protel and other formats would make sense as well.<p>Your basic cost seems ok although the SparkFun $5/square inch deal works out cheaper in many cases if you just want one PCB less than a 10 sq in size. <p>Shipping costs are hard to understand. Having exact costs would help me make a decision. As a customer, I am suspicious of hidden costs (or unbounded or unspecified costs).<p>Having a US address will help with some people but if you get a decent reputation, you can do business without one. Olemex does ok without one.<p>OK, that's enough free consulting...<p>Phil

[jwax]

Offer a discount to Nuts and Volts readers.

[Gorgon]

Hi Mike,
Please remember that Europe is also a part of the global market.<p>You need to be RoHS compliant to reach the professional market after July 2006.<p>But, I don't think thats a problem since China is also implementing environmental restrictions.<p>I will try this out myself some time, if it is easy enough. <p>TOK

[Engineer1138]

philba said it really well. I have consided using Olimex, but never got around to it.<p>For hobbyists/small business doing short runs, the PCB market here could use some more lower-cost players. Currently the cheapest one I know of is expresspcb.com, but they don't take Gerber files, so I won't use them. For low cost prototypes, I used to go to Alberta Printed Circuits in Canada.<p>My biggest concern with buying from China would be potential import restrictions (you may want to research this and let your customers know if there are any), and turnaround time.<p>Since labor cost seems to be the primary driving force in PCB cost, you can probably compete on price: if you could do a 2-sided board with mask and silkscreen for the same price that APC charges for that board without mask & screen (about US$90 for two 4x5 boards), I would definitely consider using your service.

[philba]

engineer, check out
spark fun<p>they are in colorado and, I believe, ship to canada. At $5 USD per square inch, its a pretty good deal. The started out at $2.50 USD per square inch but jacked their prices. at $5, its still a pretty good deal.<p>I've seen posts that indiacte satisfied customers.

[philba]

Mike, I just thought of one other question - do you allow panelized boards (multiple boards in a single submission). That might make your service more attractive.<p>Phil

[ezpcb]

Hi Dear Friends,<p>Many thanks to your kindly help. Our business had just begun for several months, but get very good reputations among our customers. I'd like to answer all the questions you mentioned before.<p>1. order process is here: http://www.pcbonline.org/c-quote.php#online_order. just upload the file, we'll send you a order form and the boards will start to make after the payment is made<p>2. file format: gerber, protel, eagle, powerpcb are all ok, but prefer gerber.<p>3. payment: paypal, bank transfer, credit are ok, but paypal is preferred in small business.<p>4. error handling: we promis re-fab if there's any error<p>5. boards are dilivery by UPS, DHL or EMS. EMS is cheaper but a little slower, usually 4-6 days to US.<p>6. Is our comany reliable?? I don't know, but I think we are not as reliable as IBM <p>7. Offer a discount for Nuts and Volts: Sure, I will!<p>8. about the boards: all our boards are with solder mask and silk screen! all boards are made in top factories of China. One of our factory make more than 1,000,000 for SONY and Samsung Digital camera, another make boards for our spaceship. They all have enviromental certification, products are all UL certificated. in short words, all the boards are go with world class quality.<p>9. we provide not only small qty for hobbies and students, but also big orders for industry.<p>10. we allow panlized boards, and I always suggest my hobbie and students customers to do so. that will save a lot for them.<p>11. besides PCB making, we also provide free valuable consultants on board designing. You know, I'm a electronics engineers for many years.<p>any questions please feel free to ask, I'll answer as I can. Thanks again all.<p>Mike<p>[ May 19, 2005: Message edited by: ezpcb.com ]</p>

[ian]

Engineer, if you're in Canada e-mail me, I know much cheaper places to get PC boards made than APC. In fact, I know for sure APC subs out board work to places in Toronto that I use. I pay about 25 cents a square inch.<p>Anybody else wanting boards made for a good price let me know, I'll handle the shipping to the US for a reasonable fee. It may not be as fast but it would be a lot less than expressPCB.<p>[ May 19, 2005: Message edited by: ian ]</p>

[ezpcb]

Hi Engineer,<p>Thanks for your reply. I had delivered more than 100 orders to US and Canada, no bad experiences encountred. <p>My price for 5pcs (not 2pcs) 4 x 5 inch board with solder mask and silk screen is $60, how about this? When you see the quality of our board you'll be more amazed.<p>One of my customer said he paid for Chrokee, but receive a Land Rover, I like this words very much <p>Yesterday I got a order from Frence, it's a 20 layers board, I don't think those US manufactures with such capabilities (such as TYCO) will make boards for hobbies and students.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Engineer1138:
philba said it really well. I have consided using Olimex, but never got around to it.<p>For hobbyists/small business doing short runs, the PCB market here could use some more lower-cost players. Currently the cheapest one I know of is expresspcb.com, but they don't take Gerber files, so I won't use them. For low cost prototypes, I used to go to Alberta Printed Circuits in Canada.<p>My biggest concern with buying from China would be potential import restrictions (you may want to research this and let your customers know if there are any), and turnaround time.<p>Since labor cost seems to be the primary driving force in PCB cost, you can probably compete on price: if you could do a 2-sided board with mask and silkscreen for the same price that APC charges for that board without mask & screen (about US$90 for two 4x5 boards), I would definitely consider using your service.<hr></blockquote>

[ezpcb]

Hi Gorgon,
Yes your are right, 40% of my business are in Europe. The lead-free technology will be forced to use in 4Q 2005 in EU. Fortunetly, we can provide lead-free PCBs. <p>The enviromental polluting is a serious problem in PCB manufacturying. There're more than 400 manufacturers in China, but only 10% of them are ISO14001 enviromental certificated. All our partners are included in the top 10%, I'm very proud of this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gorgon:
Hi Mike,
Please remember that Europe is also a part of the global market.<p>You need to be RoHS compliant to reach the professional market after July 2006.<p>But, I don't think thats a problem since China is also implementing environmental restrictions.<p>I will try this out myself some time, if it is easy enough. <p>TOK<hr></blockquote><p>[ May 19, 2005: Message edited by: ezpcb.com ]</p>

[Engineer1138]

ian: I'm in the US. I have used APC because at the time they were cheaper than any US supplier I could find (for small quantities), and price was important<p>express: I will definitely look at your company next time I need prototypes. Those are great prices and I wouldn't mind waiting a few days extra for shipping at that rate.

[Gorgon]

Hi Mike,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>2. file format: gerber, protel, eagle, powerpcb are all ok, but prefer gerber.<hr></blockquote><p>What Gerber format? Can you take 274D or do you need 274X?<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>10. we allow panlized boards, and I always suggest my hobbie and students customers to do so. that will save a lot for them.<hr></blockquote><p>Can you panellize single boards? At what cost?<p>
What sort of restrictions is it on prototype boards?<p>TOK

[ezpcb]

Hi Gorgon,
Gerber 274x is preferred. We can do the panelize for free in even small batch (>1 squeare meter) order.
The restrictions are listed here: http://www.pcbonline.org/products/produ ... capability<p>in short words:
*1-30 layer
*0.15-5mm thickness
*minimum 3mil track width/space
*minimum 0.1mm hole size
*impendence control available
*blind & buried vias available<p>but try to avoid to challange the limits, the price will be higher (may be still lower than the price of the common boards of your local vendors)<p>BTW, Our price for batch order can be down to $0.13/sq inch.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gorgon:
Hi Mike,<p>Can you panellize single boards? At what cost?<p>What sort of restrictions is it on prototype boards?<p>TOK<hr></blockquote>

[rstofer]

I use ExpressPCB and I like their order process. Two things I would like to see: more device templates in the software and lower prices for more complex boards such as those with multiple layers and solder masks.<p>I would certainly consider your service if it was as easy to use as ExpressPCB and if the software to generate the board was free. For the small projects I do, complex and expensive software is out of the question.