Geothermal heating

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ian
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Geothermal heating

Post by ian » Thu May 05, 2005 2:11 pm

I checked into geothermal heating. At $20,000 CDN install cost it's a little steep. Intrigueing though, the savings is there, but not quite enough to offset the huge cost. I pay about $1500 in oil, a high effiency gas furnace would save me more.
But.......... its almost feasable,...........<p>hey honey, I wanna spend 20 grand on a home heating system..........,
yeah, they need to dig 3 big holes in the yard with heavy equipment...........
I'm not sure if they'll replace the flowers............<p>I'll get back to you guys...........

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Chris Smith
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Chris Smith » Thu May 05, 2005 2:54 pm

So what were you saving?
Your country’s wealth, its future, soldier is the next oil war, what? <p>When you cant add in all the hidden costs, you should never apply for any accounting job, not even a small one.

ian
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by ian » Thu May 05, 2005 2:59 pm

Chris, Canada isn't in an oil war, I doubt we ever will be.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Chris Smith » Thu May 05, 2005 3:40 pm

Ian, you need to look at the big picture, or all your math comes to nothing. <p>Which COSTS less?
Spending 100 dollars in Arabia for some oil to do a given job.. OR<p>Spending 150 dollars at home, purchasing Home made equipment, made by people from your own country, made of home made materials,.... To do that same job that only takes 100 bucks spent in Arabia? <p>The money spent in Arabia, if your lucky will only amount to 25% coming back in the form of trade. <p>75% of your spent money, is a total loss and will not return to benifit you or your country. <p>While 100% of money spent at home stays at home, employs your people, which makes your country and economy stronger, less dependence on foreign purchases, less wars, less deaths, less pollution over all if it doesn’t involve burning fuel to do the job, less foreign politics which makes your world safer, less grief and bad will abroad, and so on and so on. <p>So which one is really cheaper in the end, when you include all the hidden costs that you refused to enter in the first place? <p>Thats why Kmart sucks. Thats why dependence on foriegn oil sucks. <p>Naivety and myopia always looks better in the short run, but it never adds up in the end.

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Externet
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Externet » Thu May 05, 2005 4:27 pm

Hello ian.
IF you find someone that drills the well for C$4,000, and shop around for the cheap peripherials for about C$800 more, would you embark on it ? <p>What was the depth quoted by the C$ 20,000 contractor ? What is the expected temperature at that depht ?<p>Miguel
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ian
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by ian » Thu May 05, 2005 7:08 pm

I didn't get into it too much, just an initial quote from a local company. They did tell me prices are dropping as geothermal becomes more accepted.
They told me they need 3 holes, I don't have the land for a horizontal system. The holes would be $9,000 and the heat pump was in the $8,000 dollar range. They said it was the best.
It's a hard sell for me though, my house is very well insulated, I'm very aggresive at turning the heat down, and I don't use a lot of hot water.<p> If you think it's overpriced let me know, I'm interested but a super high efficiency gas will only cost me a few thousand, and that will only cost me $1000 for a years heating.

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Externet
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Externet » Thu May 05, 2005 10:05 pm

Hello ian.<p>Yes, I believe the price quoted is as the solar cells, oportunistic and speculative.<p>Toronto does not appear like a convenient site; deep boreholes would not make financial sense for heating. A shallow 25 metre well is cheap and can provide some SEASONAL savings in my opinion, and superb for cooling in the summer.<p>The C$8,000 for the heat exchanger can be an automotive radiator wrapped in a tin (or even cardboard!) box with a couple of thermometers, a $20 fan and a $50 circulation pump for a LIMITED season design. Make yours, or have a HVAC duct mechanic to put it together !
The expensive heat pump stuff is when your 15°C ground source has to be compressed to a 25°C heating.<p>With an exterior temperature ambient below 0°C, keeping a home warm to 15°C with a shallow geothermal while not occupied, and turn on the standard heating when occupied, gives some savings.<p>Check drilling price with a plain water well drilling contractor instead an 'specialized' geothermal genius. A hole is hole ! Make one single 25m. vertical well and evaluate if in the future makes sense to drill a second, or third if you have the backyard.
5cm.Ø plastic pipe cannot be that much $.
Do not fill the borehole after U pipe is installed, just cap it.<p>http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_im ... page=3&c=y<p>http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo ... wners.html<p>http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/hom ... .html#cost<p>Miguel :)
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by ian » Fri May 06, 2005 9:23 am

Hey Externet, I got another quote..........$30,000.<p>I figure if I replace all my windows, get a super high efficiency furnace and put in more insulation I'll save just as much energy and $10,000.
I don't think I'll be duct-taping a system together with a car radiator anytime soon.
I think the ground in Canada is cooler than 15 degrees. The system would be more complicated.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Chris Smith » Fri May 06, 2005 2:32 pm

"and that will only cost me $1000 for a years heating"!!!!!<p>Log cabin time, seven to nine inch walls, light bulbs for heaters. <p>The only heat you will need to make, is the heat that goes out the door when you enter and exit, and a mud room drops even that.

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Externet
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Externet » Sun May 08, 2005 7:47 pm

Hi fellows.<p>What about one of those old satellite parabolic mesh antennas, the big ones, about 8? feet Ø, that you still see rotting under leaves and spider webs in some backyards.
A stainless steel container in the focus, aluminium foil on the reflector, water in, very hot water out. Recirculate in the house for winters. Same Mickeymouse technique, a car radiator, a pump and a fan :) <p>Sun tracking of course. In the sun tracking subject, there is a schematic to build them using leds as photosensors. Green ones produce ~1.5V ... I thought a white one would produce more voltage, but not. (0.2V) Why?<p>Miguel :)
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Chris Smith
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Chris Smith » Sun May 08, 2005 8:45 pm

I wrote about a sun tracker device back in the early 90s for the Tech forum. They are simple.<p> The best way to use a 10 foot dish is to visit a glass house and purchase used or junk types of mirror tiles, 1 inch square, 144 per tile, with or with out the mesh that attaches them into a 12 inch square. <p>A lot of times they just throw away the bits when they separate from the “tile”, and the screwed up tile as well.

You glue them onto the dish with anything that will stick them or last, [silicon/caulk] AND these mirror tiles will focus and concentrate the suns rays into the center feed horn area.<p> How you use this heat can be many ways, but it WILL start fires if your not careful. <p>The dish has a polar or arc type tracker motor and so all it needs is to advance with the sun, which any simple clock does any way.<p> The clock arm can point to the sun each hour of the day accurately, and can be used to track the sun.

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Externet
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Externet » Sun May 08, 2005 9:40 pm

Mirror tiles, hmmmm... Never seen them. If they are not too heavy, can be a good alternative.<p>The 8 feet Ø C-band dish can yield 4.5 KW. Plenty to feed the domestic hot water supply and heat the whole house.
That is IF the solar radiation is 1KW/m². This figure is what I learned as for photocells application, but if by considering also the IR and UV spectrum besides the visible, that figure is larger, I don't know. Well, let's leave it there, there is clouds too.<p>Now, costs... From a few dollars for a garage sale dish to a worst case of ~$600? new, plus some fabrication/welding of the focus boiler, ¿$200?, some pennies for shiny aluminium foil and glue, $100 for pipes and pipes insulation, $100 for tracking electronics, If hot water storage is implemented for night demand, well, it is 55gal drums plus fiberglass wool insulation... another $100 ? ; a few feet of car heater hose to allow tracking motion $50.
Seems like can be done for about $1500 worst case.<p>For some cold locations it could pay itself in a little over one year. That is assumming $100 for heating + water heating monthly.<p>If the dish is garage sale material, for sure. <p>Now, does the tracking design has some feature to return to aim east after hitting the west limit switch ? How does it return ready for sunrise if at the end of the afternoon there is not enough sun to activate the photosensors for reaching the west limit switch?
Maybe a darkness (night) sensor to do it...<p>Well, who has one collecting spiders?<p>Miguel :roll:
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Chris Smith
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by Chris Smith » Sun May 08, 2005 11:02 pm

The mirror tiles are like any other tile, 144 per square foot, but instead of tile, they are one inch square mirrors pieces. <p>Bathroom tiles, or "above the bed tiles"? <p>You just glue them “by hand” around the dish. Perfection isn’t necessary, as most will focus onto a region of the feed horn because of the parabola of the dish.<p>Dishes, are free. I have has soo many offers to “remove them”...... I have to decline.<p>The tracking device is as simple as a clock. <p>IF you turn a clock on its side, and point its hour hand on the rising sun, the hour hand will exactly follow the sun, from sunrise to sun set, because the clock and the earth spin at the same exact rate.

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sofaspud
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by sofaspud » Sun May 08, 2005 11:32 pm

What is that last statement again? The hour hand will exactly follow the sun, from sunrise to sunset?? You have 6 hour days there in Bieber?
For most clocks, the hour hand makes two revolutions for each revolution of the Earth.<p>[ May 08, 2005: Message edited by: sofaspud ]</p>

ian
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Re: Geothermal heating

Post by ian » Mon May 09, 2005 5:33 am

The sun supplies about 1kW per square meter in ideal conditions, i.e. Sahara desert, dry day, high noon. Look for 800W per square meter/yard on an ideal day and time in Southern states.<p>What I'd like to know is what is the reflectivity of glass? Does it reflect all or most of the spectrum? What are the losses? <p>I'd like to see a solar tracker companie offer a computer controller tracker that could reflect the sun to an area all day. Then you could reflect the sun into a house window with minimal loss, or focus a few onto a sloar panel setup.

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