About DSL

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Lenp
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About DSL

Post by Lenp » Mon May 01, 2017 5:47 pm

First, I think am currently in full command of my faculties. I don't drink (to excess) nor or do I use drugs.... but probably should start!

My daughter called today about a phone problem they are experiencing that just started today.
This a simple system, 3 or 4 jacks and a alarm dialer connected through an RJ31X, and it has all worked for 15 years.
They have DSL through Verizon, and the telephones all have DSL filters and the modem is plugged into a normal jack

In a nut shell, They have internet connectivity at the inside jack, but no phone service at any inside jacks, including the one the modem is connected to!
She says it is dead, and cannot hear a dial tone, no side tone and none of the buttons will dial, so it seems there is no battery on the line.
They unplugged the DSL filters, unplugged all telephone sets and went room to room with a test telephone, and still no connection was evident.
The wireless phone has an IN USE message since it cannot detect the on hook battery voltage.
But wait, here's the hooker! There is dial tone at the interface, and they can call out with the test phone from there and all is well.

Now, this not my first pole climb and I know this just makes no sense. The internet signal and phone signals are all on the same pair coming through he house with
no separation of the services. That is why the DSL filters are used, to keep the computer traffic off of the phones. I have seen where a separate line is run ahead of a DSL filter for the computer and all the phones are behind the DSL filter. Yes, if the filter were to open, no dial tone, but that doesn't explain the lack of dial tone at the computer connection!

No, I have not been there to look it over, but probably will need stick my nose in, but my daughter is pretty savvy, follows directions and has the right answers,except that now they don't add up.
A Google search shows this problem as a common one for DSL, except, and here's the big exception, nobody has claimed to have this problem and still have telco service at the interface?

So since a DSL modem sits across the T/R all the time it must be a high impedance device. Maybe there is a crappy connection between the interface and the rest of the inside wiring,
that allows the DSL signal through but cannot provide the current for the phone. Even at that, I would expect that there would at least be some hum or noise on the phones inside. If the phones are not vintage telephones, but have electronic circuits, probably they are stone dead since there is not enough voltage to make them smart. I'll post back after the autopsy. I will not give up my orange test set!

Opinions, comments whatever, throw it out
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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MicroRem
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Re: About DSL

Post by MicroRem » Mon May 01, 2017 6:29 pm

"My advice to you is to start drinking heavily" so sayeth Mr. Blutarski

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Lenp
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Re: About DSL

Post by Lenp » Mon May 01, 2017 6:47 pm

Best offer I've had was when i was walking on the embarcadero in San Frsncisco snd a street wino was leainhg against the fence. As I approached asked for a couple of dollars to get us a bottle. I told him no thanks, I don"t drink. He said "Sit down and I'll teach you!
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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jwax
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Re: About DSL

Post by jwax » Tue May 02, 2017 8:20 am

Any big thunderstorm/lightning nearby lately?

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Janitor Tzap
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Re: About DSL

Post by Janitor Tzap » Tue May 02, 2017 9:45 am

jwax wrote:Any big thunderstorm/lightning nearby lately?
That may be the case.

I have DSL and Phone service.

During lightning storms, the Central Box for my area can get struck, and it will screw up the phone service.
But not the DSL.

Have her contact NET/TELCO provider, and tell them to fix it.


Signed: Janitor Tzap

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Lenp
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Re: About DSL

Post by Lenp » Tue May 02, 2017 10:09 am

As I mentioned in the post, she has dial ltone at the NID so the problem is on her side, and there will be a charge.
Since I prewired the house when it was being built I documented the wire runs, so it's just a matter of getting the time to go look at it. It could even be a fault on her side, at the NID.
Thanks
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Externet
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Re: About DSL

Post by Externet » Tue May 02, 2017 12:03 pm

Hi Len. You have to be there.
Follow the process of elimination. Or reversed, by disconnecting everything and starting from trying only a telephone at the point of entry, confirming 48V presence and capability of completing a talk call -not only dialing-. Then add the gadgets one by one until craps.
- Abolish the deciBel ! -

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Janitor Tzap
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Re: About DSL

Post by Janitor Tzap » Tue May 02, 2017 7:26 pm

Hmmm..........

Okay,
It may be the Alarm dialer.

It may have failed, and is cutting out the phones.
Here's some info.
http://spoonhandle.com/technology/2012/ ... ne-seizure


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Lenp
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Re: About DSL

Post by Lenp » Tue May 02, 2017 9:58 pm

Not the dialer. The RJ31X jack has switch contacts that keep the circuit continuous when the plug is removed, and it is removed. Also everything in rhe house is downstream of the RJ31X so the data would have been lost as well.
I may get there this week and will post whatever I find. They are not in a big rush as they have their hands full with the telemarketers calling their cell phones! :mad:
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

gerty
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Re: About DSL

Post by gerty » Fri May 05, 2017 9:33 am

Had a problem with my phones a few years back, I also have DSL. Phones were dead, no dial tone, but computers worked. Opened interface box and found that I have 2 pairs running to house, one voice, the other data. Called phone co.(we're on a co-op) and they were there within an hour. told him what I found and he double checked my findings.
He went down the road to a substation, 20 minutes later my phone rang, he found that someone terminated a pair next to mine and shorted voice pair out. I asked if it was normal to have 2 pair like I do and he said that's how they were doing all of them. IN my area volts across phone line 55 on hook, 6 volts off hook, 100 volts ringing. Your mileage may differ...

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Lenp
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Re: About DSL

Post by Lenp » Wed May 31, 2017 7:18 am

The TELCO normally does not rewire when DSL is installed in a residence. Filters are installed at each non-data location. Right now this seems to have low priority since they all have cell phone implants. :smile:
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Re: About DSL

Post by Stainless » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:27 pm

I've worked in the alarm industry for 17 years now, and I would double check that RJ31X. I've seen them go bad. What happens when you pull the plug is that the contacts inside the jack fall back onto a shorting bar, that completes the connection from the NID to the house phones. If that connection isn't making a 100% connection, you will lose dialtone to the house phones while still having dialtone at the NID. Think of it this way, that jack has something plugged into it 100% of the time. This can either stretch out the contacts so they don't fall completely onto the shorting bar or there could be corrosion or dirty connections on the shorting bar when you unplug the alarm.

With the alarm system unplugged, open the RJ31X. The RED & GREEN on the jack goes to the NID. Meter them first. If you have no voltage, the problem is between the NID and RJ31X. If you have voltage, meter the BROWN and GRAY on the jack. If you lose voltage, the jack is bad. If you have voltage, go back to the NID and meter the return pair (same color wires connected to the Brown & Gray on the RJ31X - some alarm installers use the yellow and black pair or use the orange/orange-white pair, depending on the type of cable they ran. As long at the RJ31X is connected as it should be (the alarm system is the first and only thing on the telco lines before all other house phones including the DSL modem), checking that will eliminate a not uncommon failure point. For the RJ31X to be properly wired to the NID, you should only have ONE pair of wires on the NID screw terminals, all other wires should be spliced onto the RJ31X return pair (the yellow/black or orange/orange-white as above).

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Lenp
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Re: About DSL

Post by Lenp » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:20 pm

Well, let's wrap this one up..
I used to work at a big central office for WECO, installed more than my share of 25 pair station cable. I wired this house when it was built 20+ years ago with quad station cable. There is one pair (G/R) in use , throughout the house. The other pair (Y/B) is terminated at the jacks but spared out at the NID for a probably never to be used second line. Some cables looped, but many are home runs to a 66 block

Here are the symptoms reported...
There was no dial tone at any jack, except at the NID.
There was a network connection at the same jacks that had no dial tone.
Each phone uses a DSL filter at the phone jack.
With the plug in, or out of the RJ31X, there was no difference.
Apparently this was a low priority item since the network connection worked, and they are cell phone addicts, so I did not cram them into my schedule to look into it.

Bottom line....
The local TELCO was called, and then the problem just vanished, but nobody at home knows 'exactly' what was done! :sad:
The Mystery remains, but, maybe it will show up again and I will have the time to take a shot at it! :cool:

Thanks all!
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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