ok, i have an update onthis POS strobe power supply, i found a tougher transister to use to be able to obtain better test results,,
i can now charge up the power supply without a tube connected to it,
once it charges up the caps i can hear noise - like a sizzeling in the transformer , but its just noise, i checked the transformer for leakage and or a bad winding, it checks out ok,
so i am suspecting it might be a passive component causing noise on the line ??
anyone have any better suggestions ?
C'mon guys,,theres gotta be someone else here with some strobe experience besides me ...
need schematic for whelen aircraft strobes
That doesn't sound good. Once the capacitor is charged, I would expect the power supply to shut down until the strobe fires. Noise in the transformer after the capacitor is charged may indicate a corona discharge in the transformer insulation. Eventually, the transformer will probably short out entirely.
If the transformer isn't encapsulated, you might be lucky. If the bad area is on the outside you might be able to use corona dope to repair the insulation. You might be able to rewind the transformer if the construction is simple enough. That would be tedious, but it might be possible.
If the transformer isn't encapsulated, you might be lucky. If the bad area is on the outside you might be able to use corona dope to repair the insulation. You might be able to rewind the transformer if the construction is simple enough. That would be tedious, but it might be possible.
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Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
If you disconnect the gate in the middle, and it still conducts, it’s the TUBE/ assembly.
The circuitry feeding the tube may have failed? [or the tube]
But, if the center is disconnected, and the TUBE continues to discharge [short out] then it sounds like the tube, unless the feed is in excess of the "static" V or required voltage of around 4k or so.
IF it exceeds this, the tube will follow into a semi conduction, meaning it will try to jump on its own.
The circuitry feeding the tube may have failed? [or the tube]
But, if the center is disconnected, and the TUBE continues to discharge [short out] then it sounds like the tube, unless the feed is in excess of the "static" V or required voltage of around 4k or so.
IF it exceeds this, the tube will follow into a semi conduction, meaning it will try to jump on its own.
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dacflyer
- Posts: 4751
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- Location: USA / North Carolina / Fayetteville
- Contact:
chris >> i have tried several good tubes...even a 12" long 5/16" thick
the tube flashes then stays in partial conduction...i measured the voltage when it does this... 475 volts flash....then 40 volts sustained arc.
the scr's when disconnected, will do nothing.. the triggering circuitry is fine
even if i manually remove the scr's and fire it manually...does the same thing...
as for the transformer and corona, there is none.. i even megged the transformer..it all shows too..i megged it at 500 and 1,000 volts.
showed all good..
i even lifted leggs on the transformer,,trying to isolate sections,,,the primary is a dual winding in parallel, i even isolated that..and the split secondary side.. sigh..i am running out of options..
the tube flashes then stays in partial conduction...i measured the voltage when it does this... 475 volts flash....then 40 volts sustained arc.
the scr's when disconnected, will do nothing.. the triggering circuitry is fine
even if i manually remove the scr's and fire it manually...does the same thing...
as for the transformer and corona, there is none.. i even megged the transformer..it all shows too..i megged it at 500 and 1,000 volts.
showed all good..
i even lifted leggs on the transformer,,trying to isolate sections,,,the primary is a dual winding in parallel, i even isolated that..and the split secondary side.. sigh..i am running out of options..
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Janitor Tzap
- Posts: 1712
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:17 pm
- Contact:
dacflyer,dacflyer wrote:chris >> i have tried several good tubes...even a 12" long 5/16" thick
the tube flashes then stays in partial conduction...i measured the voltage when it does this... 475 volts flash....then 40 volts sustained arc.
the scr's when disconnected, will do nothing.. the triggering circuitry is fine
even if i manually remove the scr's and fire it manually...does the same thing...
as for the transformer and corona, there is none.. i even megged the transformer..it all shows too..i megged it at 500 and 1,000 volts.
showed all good..
i even lifted leggs on the transformer,,trying to isolate sections,,,the primary is a dual winding in parallel, i even isolated that..and the split secondary side.. sigh..i am running out of options..
I think rshayes could be right about the transformer.
Have you tried a Ring Generator on it?
Like a Heathkit IT-5235 YOKE/FLYBACK Tester.
It can produce voltages from 30V p-p all the way to 40Kv p-p.
Or do you have another transformer from a working unit you can swap
it with?
Signed:Janitor Tzap
.
HEEEEYYY...Flac Dyer:
O.K. after hearing what you have subbed in the way of other known "good" operable parts into the circuitry. Lets enact Basic Failure Analysis 101, and think about the situation from this perspective.
From the basic / primary aspects of the units operation, the system circuitry would have a DC/DC upverting power supply circuitry, being of such power design capability such as to bring up the energy storage capacitor(s) up to their prescribed charge levels at somewhat of a time period prior to the time that they are then required to discharge into the flash tube.
Then the whole recharge cycle repeats after the FLASH. Therefore the produced charge to be presented to the flash capacitor(s) would initially be confronted with an initially very high power requirement until the charge progressively builds up and the charge level requirements from the power supply tapers down as the caps top off to their full charge level.
The caps are now at their highest energy storage level and just waiting to conduct across the flash tubes electrodes. However, not quite yet, that is being dependent upon the timing elements having triggered /created a multi K high voltage level that is routed to the "trigger" electrode of the flash tube such that a plasma will be created within the tube.
That produced plasma then creates an internal flow path that is now conductive enough to permit the charged capacitor bank to dump its brute force charge level across the end electrode path with the production of the brilliant flash.
Then, the whole.... capacitor charge - top off - fire - flash..... cycle repeats.
That said, now if one looks at the conductive path required from the power supply to the capacitor band one would find the power transfer level
being highest at initial charge onset and then tapering down as the caps charge up.
Then you would have the conductive path that would be connecting BETWEEN the capacitor bank and the flash tube, where there would be the requirement of the highest power level of the system to be conducted between those two points.
Now if one was to take that circuit and have the storage capacitor bank out of the circuit, one would find that the power supply would not be loaded down by the loading effect of the caps in circuit and its voltage would shoot up much higher than normal, but never high enough to
flash the tube on its own, HOWEVER, wait until the triggering action comes along and ionizes the strobe tubes internals and the tube can then flash over BUT with a somewhat dismal flashing / arcing action, SINCE the brute force charge level of the capacitor bank was NOT there in circuit to be utilized.
Sooooo now...... I would ask you to check out the conductive path between the capacitor bank and the flash tube to see if the path could
be interrupted....specifically by the conductive path having solder ring joints somewhere within that path. You could figure that the DC power
conductive path from the power supply to the tube electrodes is complete at all times, since it always flashes, BUT if the storage capacitors
were dropping out of circuit continuity a bit later .... that would cause that effect that you are experiencing after some initial series of normal flashes.
Now I'm blind, and can't see your unit, such as to confirm how much of THAT path is hard wired or how much is PCB oriented and the effort
that the manuf oriented towards connectively "beefing up" of critical high current level connective points...so that will require your eyes inspection.
I know for a fact that at NASA our solder requirements were critical to the degree that components leads were initially dip soldered, QC inspected and then either vacuum or inert gas sealed in packaging. That... even then.... having an expiration dating...heck...even our water was time dated !
Check your unit for the possibility that there might be solder "ring" joints involved between the cap bank connections and the flash tube, but we know that the basic B+ to the flash tube is OK as it always flashes...right ?....but it would only then be puny when it didn't get the massive watt-second charge getting to it from the capacitor bank.
Referencing Ilustrations:
Now, on the above, one would have no problem on detecting the mechanically stress induced concentric ring joint as seen in A, but it becomes a bit harder to see the peripheral floating inconnectivity right up against , and surrounding the component wire as shown at B...then you have to swing down the 50-100-300 x stereo microscope to fully detect and zero in on the fault with C.
The ring joints connectivity can be varying with its thermal temperature / expansion, as well as the degree of power that has to be conducted by the connection. On that capacitor bank discharge, it is fierce, so eventually the effective conductive area should decrease ever more as micro-cavitation erodes away at the existant metals that are making up the remaining connection being made by a ring solder joint.
Finally check out your unit and see if this might be your fault, by fluxing and liberal reflow soldering of all soldered PCB connectons in that conductive circuitry loop.
I don't know how critical their manufacturing was on that commercial unit. Plus I don't expect your units mechanical mounting position to the aircraft to be cushion pad buffered.
On a prop job, there can be some wierd and fierce micro vibrations and their harmonic forces that are subjected to the airframe via engine or minor prop imbalance action.
73's de Edd
[email protected] ...........(Interstellar~~~~Warp~~~Speed)
[email protected].........(Firewalled*Spam*Cookies*Crumbs)
<b>I was just now reading something and saw.... "hemorrhoids"....."hemorrhoids" ???? now shouldn't they, in reality, be called "asteroids"? </b>
.
HEEEEYYY...Flac Dyer:
O.K. after hearing what you have subbed in the way of other known "good" operable parts into the circuitry. Lets enact Basic Failure Analysis 101, and think about the situation from this perspective.
From the basic / primary aspects of the units operation, the system circuitry would have a DC/DC upverting power supply circuitry, being of such power design capability such as to bring up the energy storage capacitor(s) up to their prescribed charge levels at somewhat of a time period prior to the time that they are then required to discharge into the flash tube.
Then the whole recharge cycle repeats after the FLASH. Therefore the produced charge to be presented to the flash capacitor(s) would initially be confronted with an initially very high power requirement until the charge progressively builds up and the charge level requirements from the power supply tapers down as the caps top off to their full charge level.
The caps are now at their highest energy storage level and just waiting to conduct across the flash tubes electrodes. However, not quite yet, that is being dependent upon the timing elements having triggered /created a multi K high voltage level that is routed to the "trigger" electrode of the flash tube such that a plasma will be created within the tube.
That produced plasma then creates an internal flow path that is now conductive enough to permit the charged capacitor bank to dump its brute force charge level across the end electrode path with the production of the brilliant flash.
Then, the whole.... capacitor charge - top off - fire - flash..... cycle repeats.
That said, now if one looks at the conductive path required from the power supply to the capacitor band one would find the power transfer level
being highest at initial charge onset and then tapering down as the caps charge up.
Then you would have the conductive path that would be connecting BETWEEN the capacitor bank and the flash tube, where there would be the requirement of the highest power level of the system to be conducted between those two points.
Now if one was to take that circuit and have the storage capacitor bank out of the circuit, one would find that the power supply would not be loaded down by the loading effect of the caps in circuit and its voltage would shoot up much higher than normal, but never high enough to
flash the tube on its own, HOWEVER, wait until the triggering action comes along and ionizes the strobe tubes internals and the tube can then flash over BUT with a somewhat dismal flashing / arcing action, SINCE the brute force charge level of the capacitor bank was NOT there in circuit to be utilized.
Sooooo now...... I would ask you to check out the conductive path between the capacitor bank and the flash tube to see if the path could
be interrupted....specifically by the conductive path having solder ring joints somewhere within that path. You could figure that the DC power
conductive path from the power supply to the tube electrodes is complete at all times, since it always flashes, BUT if the storage capacitors
were dropping out of circuit continuity a bit later .... that would cause that effect that you are experiencing after some initial series of normal flashes.
Now I'm blind, and can't see your unit, such as to confirm how much of THAT path is hard wired or how much is PCB oriented and the effort
that the manuf oriented towards connectively "beefing up" of critical high current level connective points...so that will require your eyes inspection.
I know for a fact that at NASA our solder requirements were critical to the degree that components leads were initially dip soldered, QC inspected and then either vacuum or inert gas sealed in packaging. That... even then.... having an expiration dating...heck...even our water was time dated !
Check your unit for the possibility that there might be solder "ring" joints involved between the cap bank connections and the flash tube, but we know that the basic B+ to the flash tube is OK as it always flashes...right ?....but it would only then be puny when it didn't get the massive watt-second charge getting to it from the capacitor bank.
Referencing Ilustrations:
Now, on the above, one would have no problem on detecting the mechanically stress induced concentric ring joint as seen in A, but it becomes a bit harder to see the peripheral floating inconnectivity right up against , and surrounding the component wire as shown at B...then you have to swing down the 50-100-300 x stereo microscope to fully detect and zero in on the fault with C.
The ring joints connectivity can be varying with its thermal temperature / expansion, as well as the degree of power that has to be conducted by the connection. On that capacitor bank discharge, it is fierce, so eventually the effective conductive area should decrease ever more as micro-cavitation erodes away at the existant metals that are making up the remaining connection being made by a ring solder joint.
Finally check out your unit and see if this might be your fault, by fluxing and liberal reflow soldering of all soldered PCB connectons in that conductive circuitry loop.
I don't know how critical their manufacturing was on that commercial unit. Plus I don't expect your units mechanical mounting position to the aircraft to be cushion pad buffered.
On a prop job, there can be some wierd and fierce micro vibrations and their harmonic forces that are subjected to the airframe via engine or minor prop imbalance action.
73's de Edd
[email protected] ...........(Interstellar~~~~Warp~~~Speed)
[email protected].........(Firewalled*Spam*Cookies*Crumbs)
<b>I was just now reading something and saw.... "hemorrhoids"....."hemorrhoids" ???? now shouldn't they, in reality, be called "asteroids"? </b>
.
-
dacflyer
- Posts: 4751
- Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: USA / North Carolina / Fayetteville
- Contact:
Edd >> i have checked for all that already, all connections tothe caps are solid , i think the hybrid chip that controls the charge circuitry is flaky
this chip controls the charging of the caps and when they are at peak charge , the charger turns off, (if there was no tubes connected ) if the tubes are connected, then the unit recharges after each flash..
the other 1/2 of the chip controls the SCR's for firing the triggers.
everything i check ,checks out good except for the charge circuit
and i belive its flakey enough to cause the sustained arc inthe tube and overloading of the powersupply charging circuit..
and i cannot get no info on this hybrid chip...so i am ending this now
i give up !
cannot get that hybrid chip no way...Whelen will not sell it to me, because it is a FAA controled part....
i been beaten again
this chip controls the charging of the caps and when they are at peak charge , the charger turns off, (if there was no tubes connected ) if the tubes are connected, then the unit recharges after each flash..
the other 1/2 of the chip controls the SCR's for firing the triggers.
everything i check ,checks out good except for the charge circuit
and i belive its flakey enough to cause the sustained arc inthe tube and overloading of the powersupply charging circuit..
and i cannot get no info on this hybrid chip...so i am ending this now
i give up !
cannot get that hybrid chip no way...Whelen will not sell it to me, because it is a FAA controled part....
i been beaten again
You say "hybrid chip". Is this a package that may be opened up, or a completely encapsulated device?
If it's openable, perhaps we could determine the chips identity from a visual? Been there, done that to thick and thin film microelectronics hybrids.
Another thought: does the lamp manufacturer have a recommended trigger/fire power supply scheme? Maybe you can make a new driver, using some of the existing parts like the transformer from info supplied by the tube maker.
If it's openable, perhaps we could determine the chips identity from a visual? Been there, done that to thick and thin film microelectronics hybrids.
Another thought: does the lamp manufacturer have a recommended trigger/fire power supply scheme? Maybe you can make a new driver, using some of the existing parts like the transformer from info supplied by the tube maker.
-
dacflyer
- Posts: 4751
- Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: USA / North Carolina / Fayetteville
- Contact:
i finally got an answer from whelen...unbeliveable !
heres what they said...
The glowing of the strobe tube is because the power supply
is going into self-ionization. The P.S. has a circuit built
into it to prevent this. It might be this circuit is not
working or somthing else is preventing it from working.
I hope this helps.
well i have traced it to be the hybrid chip is at fault,,its a ceramic chip coated with hard black goop...i tried to get it off, no use..
so i sent them a reply asking if this part is available for me to buy...
so now i wait..for them to say yaeh or nea..
JWAX >> these types of tubes i use have built in triggers, the PS just sends a pulse of power to the triggers of the tubes to make them fire.
but atleast i know now that these high frequency PS must have a circuit to snuff out the self-ionization, i guess thats because they have to charge up so fast and fire so rapidly,, 4 flashes a second is about what this one does per outlet X 2
heres what they said...
The glowing of the strobe tube is because the power supply
is going into self-ionization. The P.S. has a circuit built
into it to prevent this. It might be this circuit is not
working or somthing else is preventing it from working.
I hope this helps.
well i have traced it to be the hybrid chip is at fault,,its a ceramic chip coated with hard black goop...i tried to get it off, no use..
so i sent them a reply asking if this part is available for me to buy...
so now i wait..for them to say yaeh or nea..
JWAX >> these types of tubes i use have built in triggers, the PS just sends a pulse of power to the triggers of the tubes to make them fire.
but atleast i know now that these high frequency PS must have a circuit to snuff out the self-ionization, i guess thats because they have to charge up so fast and fire so rapidly,, 4 flashes a second is about what this one does per outlet X 2
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dacflyer
- Posts: 4751
- Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: USA / North Carolina / Fayetteville
- Contact:
haklesup > if you read my previous post about the problem i been having
with this strobe PS with the tube retaining a arc after the flash..
its basically going into a self-ionization. after the flash the gas is remaining ionized and not totally extinguishing.. this is because of the high frequency and high voltage, the hybrid chip is said to be having a circuit that cuts this out.. and its not working..
i was told that the PS should cut off for a microsecond, before the flash..then remain off for another microsecond before recharging the caps for the next flash...
i just got work from whelen,,they want $42.00 for that chip.. ihave to decide if i want to purchace that now or not..i'd be really upset if that wasn't the problem. but it has to be..i cannot find any other parts that are suspect..
with this strobe PS with the tube retaining a arc after the flash..
its basically going into a self-ionization. after the flash the gas is remaining ionized and not totally extinguishing.. this is because of the high frequency and high voltage, the hybrid chip is said to be having a circuit that cuts this out.. and its not working..
i was told that the PS should cut off for a microsecond, before the flash..then remain off for another microsecond before recharging the caps for the next flash...
i just got work from whelen,,they want $42.00 for that chip.. ihave to decide if i want to purchace that now or not..i'd be really upset if that wasn't the problem. but it has to be..i cannot find any other parts that are suspect..
.
Pilot to navigator....come in pls:
Is it Monday yet ??? and if not, relevant to the ionization lag, before springing for that chip / buying the farm, hows about trying a
hefty damper diode across the flash tubes main electrodes. Polarity is anode to ground and cathode to the tube, to see
if a quick bleed off path is as good as a short power disruption. Something in the order or equivalent of NTE 525 or 506.
73's de Edd
[email protected] ...........(Interstellar~~~~Warp~~~Speed)
[email protected].........(Firewalled*Spam*Cookies*Crumbs)
<b>I'm feeling a litle ill today, I just may have caught a virus from my computer.</b>
.
Pilot to navigator....come in pls:
Is it Monday yet ??? and if not, relevant to the ionization lag, before springing for that chip / buying the farm, hows about trying a
hefty damper diode across the flash tubes main electrodes. Polarity is anode to ground and cathode to the tube, to see
if a quick bleed off path is as good as a short power disruption. Something in the order or equivalent of NTE 525 or 506.
73's de Edd
[email protected] ...........(Interstellar~~~~Warp~~~Speed)
[email protected].........(Firewalled*Spam*Cookies*Crumbs)
<b>I'm feeling a litle ill today, I just may have caught a virus from my computer.</b>
.
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