Hello again,
Chris:
Gravity, a force in itself, does not affect the speed because its
direction is 90 degrees away from the line of movement. It's the
effect of gravity on the friction in the bearings and where the tires
meet the road surface...both are friction... which i thought we
agreed to ignore. We're also ignoring relativistic effects because
our experiment is running much, much slower than the speed of light.
Once we agree on these things we can move to include friction or
whatever if you like...agreed? If you dont like this then we'll use
rockets in deep space (as you suggested) with no air friction and
no gravity (far away from other objects).
Here's a simpler analogy from the basic laws of motion...
Starting with
F=M*A
we get
F=M*dv/dt
F*t=M*V
V=t*F/M+V0
V=t*F/M (setting V0=0)
From this we can prove that:
Twice the mass of M accelerates to velocity V in twice the time
mass M does (assuming constant acceleration and V0=0 for both)...
V1=t1*F/(M)
V2=t2*F/(2*M), where t2=2*t1 (twice the time, twice the mass)
then
V1=V2
So both masses get to the same speed only at different times.
If we stop applying force to mass 1 after time t1 once mass
2 gets to time t2 (twice t1) both masses will be traveling
at the same speed. If we then stop applying force to mass 2
as well then both masses will continue to travel at the same
speed forever.
Take care,
Al
How does drill variable speed work?
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Chris,
yours of Feb 19th 9.47 pm " X. . . . . FOOT-POUNDS = horse power " semms only to take a year or so . . but you appear to have learned something. . .. Gotcha
yours of Feb 19th 9.47 pm " X. . . . . FOOT-POUNDS = horse power " semms only to take a year or so . . but you appear to have learned something. . .. Gotcha
BB
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Will,...... you still talk out the rear end.
I learned everything I need to know from you Will on how to recognize a fool. They love to Google in place of a formal education.
Read any good books lately, like a physics book?
Al....That still doesn’t account for the moon [and many other things in the cosmos], which is all but stopped because of Gravity.
Even on earth gravity is not a smooth force or perfect force, there are ripples, waves, and all sorts of things that do affect spinning objects that are even perpendicular to the plane. The tidal forces with out water being involved move large planatary masses many feet in all directions the same as solid objects like the spinning disk.
The measurements would be in the nano meter range but still there.
And because this action is not uniform there exists a imbalance. The concept that one half perfectly offsets the other half is not true.
Time makes sure that doesn’t happen and we even have a name for it, its called lead and lag.
Same thing with the charging and discharging of a cap. Zero summing only apply as an average, not as a whole and there is not necessarily a rebound from what gravity steals, to some how automatically return it [the energy loss] to the point of origin.
Time placed this planet spinning at 1000 mph, traveling through the cosmos at 100,000 mph some where else so even if it had a return address, the address moved.
The earth is irregular, gravity is irregular, and the moons influence over earth are irregular.
But even it you extended your time frame to the end of the cosmos, attrition always wins out.
When earth and the moon do their thing, it squeezes and compresses the planet tens of feet, the entire planet, into a bulge.
Just because the disk is tiny doesn’t negate this exact same force on a micro nano scale.
EVERY thing in the cosmos is affected by gravity, including the atoms them self.
But the argument is not about splitting hairs, or small measurements, its about the fact that it does exist.
Even if we remove friction and Air, which by the way is cheating even to this argument, gravity alone affects the spinning motion of any and all masses.
And then we cant remove friction or air from the original question of two spinning disks, so the argument still stands at “the larger disk with more mass is not equal to the smaller” and for three or more reasons.
Thus under the conditions mentioned, it will spin slower.
There is no argument to back gravity plays no role out side of friction alone on the bearings.
Hovering magnets in a vacuum on earth stop spinning from the miniature version of gravity called the magnetic field that is holding it up in the first place.
These affects are real. In order to maintain speed or velocity, you must inject fresh power to over come attrition caused from Gravity, friction, air, and all of the above that apply.
The greater the mass the greater the force needed.
However, gravity is the one that you can never remove all together because even across light years of space, gravity still has a influence on the celestial bodies.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
I learned everything I need to know from you Will on how to recognize a fool. They love to Google in place of a formal education.
Read any good books lately, like a physics book?
Al....That still doesn’t account for the moon [and many other things in the cosmos], which is all but stopped because of Gravity.
Even on earth gravity is not a smooth force or perfect force, there are ripples, waves, and all sorts of things that do affect spinning objects that are even perpendicular to the plane. The tidal forces with out water being involved move large planatary masses many feet in all directions the same as solid objects like the spinning disk.
The measurements would be in the nano meter range but still there.
And because this action is not uniform there exists a imbalance. The concept that one half perfectly offsets the other half is not true.
Time makes sure that doesn’t happen and we even have a name for it, its called lead and lag.
Same thing with the charging and discharging of a cap. Zero summing only apply as an average, not as a whole and there is not necessarily a rebound from what gravity steals, to some how automatically return it [the energy loss] to the point of origin.
Time placed this planet spinning at 1000 mph, traveling through the cosmos at 100,000 mph some where else so even if it had a return address, the address moved.
The earth is irregular, gravity is irregular, and the moons influence over earth are irregular.
But even it you extended your time frame to the end of the cosmos, attrition always wins out.
When earth and the moon do their thing, it squeezes and compresses the planet tens of feet, the entire planet, into a bulge.
Just because the disk is tiny doesn’t negate this exact same force on a micro nano scale.
EVERY thing in the cosmos is affected by gravity, including the atoms them self.
But the argument is not about splitting hairs, or small measurements, its about the fact that it does exist.
Even if we remove friction and Air, which by the way is cheating even to this argument, gravity alone affects the spinning motion of any and all masses.
And then we cant remove friction or air from the original question of two spinning disks, so the argument still stands at “the larger disk with more mass is not equal to the smaller” and for three or more reasons.
Thus under the conditions mentioned, it will spin slower.
There is no argument to back gravity plays no role out side of friction alone on the bearings.
Hovering magnets in a vacuum on earth stop spinning from the miniature version of gravity called the magnetic field that is holding it up in the first place.
These affects are real. In order to maintain speed or velocity, you must inject fresh power to over come attrition caused from Gravity, friction, air, and all of the above that apply.
The greater the mass the greater the force needed.
However, gravity is the one that you can never remove all together because even across light years of space, gravity still has a influence on the celestial bodies.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Hello again,
Ok Chris,
So let's see now...
We have
F=M*A
which is a well known physics equation of motion,
and we have
V=t*F/M
Which IN THE ABSENSE OF ALL OTHER FORCES except
that indicated by 'F' above means that two
trucks with different masses influenced by the
same amount of force EVENTUALLY reach the same
speed, regardless of that mass.
So, if we set
t=1
F=1
M=1
we get
V=1
because t*F/M equals 1.
Now Chris tell me, what is the velocity after
we apply a force (equivalent to that of gravity
on the earths surface) in a line 90 degrees
apart from the direction of travel of the truck?
In other words, the force we initially apply
comes from the rear of the truck and pushes
on the back of the truck (or whatever) and this
new force Fg we apply to the top of the truck
and pointing directly down toward the ground
(perpendicular to the motion of the truck).
So the question is, Chris:
How much does the velocity change after 1 second
of motion due to the influence of gravity and
completely ignoring friction?
BTW, in these kinds of experiments friction and
other influences are very often ignored in order
to understand the basic operation. Later, if
desired, the forces are then applied one by one
in order to investigate just what effect these
other contributions have on the final answer.
Take care,
Al
Ok Chris,
So let's see now...
We have
F=M*A
which is a well known physics equation of motion,
and we have
V=t*F/M
Which IN THE ABSENSE OF ALL OTHER FORCES except
that indicated by 'F' above means that two
trucks with different masses influenced by the
same amount of force EVENTUALLY reach the same
speed, regardless of that mass.
So, if we set
t=1
F=1
M=1
we get
V=1
because t*F/M equals 1.
Now Chris tell me, what is the velocity after
we apply a force (equivalent to that of gravity
on the earths surface) in a line 90 degrees
apart from the direction of travel of the truck?
In other words, the force we initially apply
comes from the rear of the truck and pushes
on the back of the truck (or whatever) and this
new force Fg we apply to the top of the truck
and pointing directly down toward the ground
(perpendicular to the motion of the truck).
So the question is, Chris:
How much does the velocity change after 1 second
of motion due to the influence of gravity and
completely ignoring friction?
BTW, in these kinds of experiments friction and
other influences are very often ignored in order
to understand the basic operation. Later, if
desired, the forces are then applied one by one
in order to investigate just what effect these
other contributions have on the final answer.
Take care,
Al
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Chris seems unable to grasp the concept of time. Tidal forces might indeed slow down a rotating disk over a period of a billion years or so. This is apparently about the time Chris plans on actually reading a basic physics text. I, and most of the others in this forum do not expect to live that long.
Bearing friction and aerodynamic drag will slow down a rotating disk in a matter of seconds to days. This behavior dominates any tidal action and is of the most interest to the rest of us, since it is observable within our lifetimes.
Bearing friction and aerodynamic drag will slow down a rotating disk in a matter of seconds to days. This behavior dominates any tidal action and is of the most interest to the rest of us, since it is observable within our lifetimes.
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Steven is googling again.
Al,
You cant have a “regardless of anything” or “IN THE ABSENCE OF ALL OTHER FORCES“ in physics.
Physics wont let you get away with more, from the same or less.
Your formulas are fine, they just don’t happen to include all of the formulas needed to find the sum total.
If I ask you to give me a sum total, or describe one HP or One Joule, but like you I use only a partial formula and limit even that to E= Volts, R= resistance and I = amps, you can not give me any bottom line for a Joule.
Why, because a partial formulae only goes so far.
With out time, a watt, etc, you cant equate a joule to me and thus you have no bottom line.
Even a Amp is made up of other parts to a formulae. It is made up of many billion of electrons which make the math whole. And even then we round it off and call it a amp.
So as long as your formulae is only a partial formulae, you wont be able to find out why the moon came to a halt, or know the effects of attrition on a spinning object that happens to be perpendicular to earths gravity, or even standing tall. In short, you will always come up short of the whole.
In the physics books there is a whole section of rounding off and approximating things.
In that alone, and in theory alone, we apply what you say for argument sake and we tend to dismiss the smaller things for the bigger picture. But when all the math is added up, you must include all the facts, not just some.
Why, because the moon took billions of years to slow down in that perfect environment, but the proof is in the pudding. It came to a stop. But if were not picky, the moon would go on for ever and we know that cant happen.
From the text...”The steady-state behavior of the Earth-Moon system takes millions of years to reach. “
So unless you can figure a way for this to go away, it still exists.
The argument on earth includes even more like air and friction, but this doesn’t lessen the fact of gravity, it increases it.
If you can figure away for tidal bulge to disappear even on small objects of mass, you have reduced the effect of gravity when no one else can.
If you can dismiss gravitational waves, you’re a god.
The bottom line is you cant use one argument to remove a fact or laws of physics from another. You can try to make a parallel out of it but the facts remain.
Gravity affects all the objects of mass, regardless of position and that effect is a net negative.
Al,
You cant have a “regardless of anything” or “IN THE ABSENCE OF ALL OTHER FORCES“ in physics.
Physics wont let you get away with more, from the same or less.
Your formulas are fine, they just don’t happen to include all of the formulas needed to find the sum total.
If I ask you to give me a sum total, or describe one HP or One Joule, but like you I use only a partial formula and limit even that to E= Volts, R= resistance and I = amps, you can not give me any bottom line for a Joule.
Why, because a partial formulae only goes so far.
With out time, a watt, etc, you cant equate a joule to me and thus you have no bottom line.
Even a Amp is made up of other parts to a formulae. It is made up of many billion of electrons which make the math whole. And even then we round it off and call it a amp.
So as long as your formulae is only a partial formulae, you wont be able to find out why the moon came to a halt, or know the effects of attrition on a spinning object that happens to be perpendicular to earths gravity, or even standing tall. In short, you will always come up short of the whole.
In the physics books there is a whole section of rounding off and approximating things.
In that alone, and in theory alone, we apply what you say for argument sake and we tend to dismiss the smaller things for the bigger picture. But when all the math is added up, you must include all the facts, not just some.
Why, because the moon took billions of years to slow down in that perfect environment, but the proof is in the pudding. It came to a stop. But if were not picky, the moon would go on for ever and we know that cant happen.
From the text...”The steady-state behavior of the Earth-Moon system takes millions of years to reach. “
So unless you can figure a way for this to go away, it still exists.
The argument on earth includes even more like air and friction, but this doesn’t lessen the fact of gravity, it increases it.
If you can figure away for tidal bulge to disappear even on small objects of mass, you have reduced the effect of gravity when no one else can.
If you can dismiss gravitational waves, you’re a god.
The bottom line is you cant use one argument to remove a fact or laws of physics from another. You can try to make a parallel out of it but the facts remain.
Gravity affects all the objects of mass, regardless of position and that effect is a net negative.
-
Dean Huster
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Harviell, MO (Poplar Bluff area)
- Contact:
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
The OP:
"What component(s) are used to change the speed of a regular DC 12-24V cordless drill, as the trigger is pressed in?
Thank you,
Boris."
Geez, Boris. Do you think anyone really cares? I used to get miffed when the EPE Chat Zone moderator would zap off-topic responses -- I even defended the off-topic responses as a natural "conversation". Then I wasted my time scanning through this convoluted thread. Now, I'm starting to see the zap reasoning when things go too far. This is like a poor guy wanting information and getting into a group discussion with his question where after the first five minutes, Boris probably got up and went to the library, saying "Geez, guys, all I wanted to know was ...."
Dean
"What component(s) are used to change the speed of a regular DC 12-24V cordless drill, as the trigger is pressed in?
Thank you,
Boris."
Geez, Boris. Do you think anyone really cares? I used to get miffed when the EPE Chat Zone moderator would zap off-topic responses -- I even defended the off-topic responses as a natural "conversation". Then I wasted my time scanning through this convoluted thread. Now, I'm starting to see the zap reasoning when things go too far. This is like a poor guy wanting information and getting into a group discussion with his question where after the first five minutes, Boris probably got up and went to the library, saying "Geez, guys, all I wanted to know was ...."
Dean
Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon
Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines).
R.I.P.
Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines).
R.I.P.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Hello again,
Dean:
Good point i read after i posted.
Chris:
[1]
I said we'll ignore friction and gravity (and
relativity) and you said "We can't ignore
gravity" so i said "Ok, fine", then i asked you
how much change in velocity will come about when
we include gravity and you didnt give me an
answer yet...so im still waiting for that
'sum', or just for the gravity alone.
[2]
You can't tell me it's impossible to figure
one effect without the other, because it's done
all the time in physics and in physics books.
Besides, it's always more informative to figure
out the individual effects so you know the
significance of each one separately, so if one
comes out too much smaller than the other you
usually ignore it because the other effects are
said to "dominate" the response. For example
you figure a force is one million kgrams
due to one effect, and due to a second effect
that force is 1 billionth of a kgram, you know
right away that the 1 billionth of a gram is
going to have VERY VERY little influence over
the final answer, if any, and may even be
impossible to detect using laboratory grade
measuring equipment (and even special methods).
This means we really "like" to figure the effects
individually, not just for the heck of it
[3]
As a side note, i read that recently the major
drill manufacturers (like Black and Decker) are
using computer algorithms to figure in the effect
of gravity at the poles of the earth and at the
equator when you use up to 1/4 inch drill bits
in their commercial drills. At first they didnt
know what to do about it, but then someone said,
"Hey let's install a switch that can be used when
someone uses it at the poles of the earth
instead of at the equator". Thus, all new drills
manufactured after February 2006 will have
a switch that increases torque in the motor that
can be used at the poles of the earth. The
increase in torque isnt exactly specified, but
it's been rumored that when drilling wood or
plastic with a standard 1/4 inch metal drill bit
the speed will increase from 600 rpm to at least
600.000000001 rpm when the switch is activated.
The people at the poles and places near the poles
were very happy to hear this great news as they
became very worried that they would only be able
to use their new drills up to 600 rpm and therefore
not be able to drill materials that required that
extra one billionth of an rpm.
[ok, just kidding here ]
Take care,
Al
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: MrAl ]</small>
Dean:
Good point i read after i posted.
Chris:
[1]
I said we'll ignore friction and gravity (and
relativity) and you said "We can't ignore
gravity" so i said "Ok, fine", then i asked you
how much change in velocity will come about when
we include gravity and you didnt give me an
answer yet...so im still waiting for that
'sum', or just for the gravity alone.
[2]
You can't tell me it's impossible to figure
one effect without the other, because it's done
all the time in physics and in physics books.
Besides, it's always more informative to figure
out the individual effects so you know the
significance of each one separately, so if one
comes out too much smaller than the other you
usually ignore it because the other effects are
said to "dominate" the response. For example
you figure a force is one million kgrams
due to one effect, and due to a second effect
that force is 1 billionth of a kgram, you know
right away that the 1 billionth of a gram is
going to have VERY VERY little influence over
the final answer, if any, and may even be
impossible to detect using laboratory grade
measuring equipment (and even special methods).
This means we really "like" to figure the effects
individually, not just for the heck of it
[3]
As a side note, i read that recently the major
drill manufacturers (like Black and Decker) are
using computer algorithms to figure in the effect
of gravity at the poles of the earth and at the
equator when you use up to 1/4 inch drill bits
in their commercial drills. At first they didnt
know what to do about it, but then someone said,
"Hey let's install a switch that can be used when
someone uses it at the poles of the earth
instead of at the equator". Thus, all new drills
manufactured after February 2006 will have
a switch that increases torque in the motor that
can be used at the poles of the earth. The
increase in torque isnt exactly specified, but
it's been rumored that when drilling wood or
plastic with a standard 1/4 inch metal drill bit
the speed will increase from 600 rpm to at least
600.000000001 rpm when the switch is activated.
The people at the poles and places near the poles
were very happy to hear this great news as they
became very worried that they would only be able
to use their new drills up to 600 rpm and therefore
not be able to drill materials that required that
extra one billionth of an rpm.
[ok, just kidding here
]Take care,
Al
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: MrAl ]</small>
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Al
#1 Number one is always small on our scale, beyond tiny, but again its not the size that counts, it’s the reality that it exists. The moon came to "all but a halt", so its real.
No two variable permissible scenarios are allowed in physics to be identical especially when there are two separate masses involved. Math is math.
[The sum can be equal]
Same scenario, different mass = different bottom line.
Like ohms law, change one part and the other parts must follow suit.
#2, No, its guesstimated, approximated, or calculated. Its never known.
And back to the original, were not splitting hairs, just describing the laws of physics.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
#1 Number one is always small on our scale, beyond tiny, but again its not the size that counts, it’s the reality that it exists. The moon came to "all but a halt", so its real.
No two variable permissible scenarios are allowed in physics to be identical especially when there are two separate masses involved. Math is math.
[The sum can be equal]
Same scenario, different mass = different bottom line.
Like ohms law, change one part and the other parts must follow suit.
#2, No, its guesstimated, approximated, or calculated. Its never known.
And back to the original, were not splitting hairs, just describing the laws of physics.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Dean
You obviously have a circus near by you?
I have two choices for the circus, drive 300 miles to the bay area, or just let the clowns into my tent.
I know of three completely reliable clowns so far.
They never fail to enlist their side kick, Mr. Google.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
You obviously have a circus near by you?
I have two choices for the circus, drive 300 miles to the bay area, or just let the clowns into my tent.
I know of three completely reliable clowns so far.
They never fail to enlist their side kick, Mr. Google.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
It's the tent where he keeps the rifle that fires 600 pound bullets.
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Steven, are you still troubled over the physics exam next week?
You should have read the books.
Your answer says volumes, volumes of ignorance followed by volumes of folly.
Are you sure you passed your EE exams, or perhaps the teacher simply tired of you.
You and Will, sword, I mean foot swallowers to the end. Stick to selling shoes.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
You should have read the books.
Your answer says volumes, volumes of ignorance followed by volumes of folly.
Are you sure you passed your EE exams, or perhaps the teacher simply tired of you.
You and Will, sword, I mean foot swallowers to the end. Stick to selling shoes.
<small>[ February 22, 2006, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Ok i give up...
It's been interesting still however.
Take care,
Al
It's been interesting still however.
Take care,
Al
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
Al, you took the time because you have the basic understandings.
But,...I never give up, I just continue to learn.
Einstein's most famous equation, E=mc2 means that mass (m) and energy (E) are really the same thing.
Kinetic energy is mass.
A.K.A. ......"the equivalence of mass and energy," or simply "mass-energy equivalence"
But what’s rocket science to our local ORDINARY EE man or the wanna bee peanut gallery?
Its Rocket science.
<small>[ February 23, 2006, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
But,...I never give up, I just continue to learn.
Einstein's most famous equation, E=mc2 means that mass (m) and energy (E) are really the same thing.
Kinetic energy is mass.
A.K.A. ......"the equivalence of mass and energy," or simply "mass-energy equivalence"
But what’s rocket science to our local ORDINARY EE man or the wanna bee peanut gallery?
Its Rocket science.
<small>[ February 23, 2006, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>
-
labview1958
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:01 am
- Contact:
Re: How does drill variable speed work?
I have done an experiment with my pcb drill with a lighter and heavier disc. I have set the voltage to my pcb drill to 3V. I attach the lighter disc and switch it ON. It moves and I switch off after 10 seconds. Then I attach the heavier disc and switch it on. It does not move. I move it manually and get's going. It appears to me to reach the same rpm as the lighter disc. I switch it off after 10 seconds. However it takes longer to stop completly. I do not have a tachometer to find the rpm. Is it correct to assume both disc reach the same rpm after 10 seconds, +-100rpm?
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