Digital television transition advertisements...

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shillyard
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Post by shillyard » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:37 pm

Bigglez I should have said airwaves. My point was that the government is interfering in the markets in ways they should not. They are picking and choosing winners and losers based on the size of their wallets. The market place should be working these things out.
If its not worth repairing its not worth buying.

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Post by Bigglez » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:10 am

shillyard wrote:Bigglez I should have said airwaves. My point was that the government is interfering in the markets in ways they should not. They are picking and choosing winners and losers based on the size of their wallets. The market place should be working these things out.
Okay, I understand your frustration.

I don't come down hard on the present day
FCC, because I don't understand the issue.

Radio Spectrum belongs to the people, in the
same way that natural reserves (gas, oil, coal)
belong to the people. THe FCC is a branch of
Federal government tasked with looking after
it in the public interest. No one has brought
a single example of abuse or conflict of interest
to this discussion.

Do you have examples that support your
claim that the FCC is not operating in the best
interest of the populus?

The spectrum made available by the switch to
DTV should, IMHO, go to the highest bidder.
It produces more revenue for a overly
leveraged government, and more importantly,
it demonstrates that only "big business" can
play in this game - because they have the
financial horsepower to succeed! This is
classic text book capitalism at work.

The last thing we want is to have the Federal
government create a telecom problem of the
scale of Boston's "Big Dig" or San Francisco's
"Bay Bridge" or the newly passed California
Prop 1A for a $10Billion bond issue to create
a high speed train.

At risk of repeating myself:
(1) The FCC is not auctioning off unused
analog TV channels
(2) DTV does not need more than 6MHz
of RF spectrum
(3) Transition DTV channels will switch
to higher power after February 2009
(4) WSD technology uses the guard bands
created by the original analog TV channel
plan, and are no longer needed in DTV
(5) Analog TV channels above 700MHz
went to the highest bidder, who happens
to be in many-to-many public communications
called "cell phones".
(6) DTV converter boxes, however mishandled
by PSAs and the non-technical press will bring
more options to those clinging to their old
analog TV sets.
(7) The FCC has never faced such a demand
for spectrum space in history, because many-
to-many communications was a recent invention
that caught on with the general public and is
very affordable.

QED

dyarker
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Post by dyarker » Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:51 am

Oh, they're calling it "Cliffing", short and discriptive. I was taught the phrase "digital does not degrade as gracefully as analog". :grin:

C U L -
Dale Y

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haklesup
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Post by haklesup » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:10 am

My point was that the government is interfering in the markets in ways they should not. They are picking and choosing winners and losers based on the size of their wallets. The market place should be working these things out.
They do that because they want to be sure the bidder can actually implement the plan. Imagine a weak company coming up with what seems like a great deal and getting an allocation then deciding to do something different or worse yet, running out of money. That entity cannot resell the spectrum awarded, it has to go back into auction. ALso the process introduces a sort of peer review to ensure projects do not interfere with other uses.

It seems some people forget that these telecom companies employ thousands of people worldwide and spend huge amounts of money to peripheral companies for parts, services and equipment that they use and provide us with services we are willing to pay for. Frankly, one telecomn company made a great year for my company by buying test equipment from me.

FCC administration is necessary to prevent users from interfering with outer uses. Unfortunately, you have to be in the big leagues to play the game and be trusted to do so. Few if any startups with unique ideas will get this spectrum. they will have to make their money selling to the ones who do.

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reloadron
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Post by reloadron » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:36 pm

All of this digtal to analog stuff is really much simpler than everyone is making it. Here is a simple little clip that explains it in detail:

http://www.bearblain.com/./media/mp_images_6_2.asx

Oh and for the Nuts & Volts types here is the Volts:

http://www.bearblain.com/./media/mp_images_6_1.asx

Ron

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Post by Bigglez » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:41 pm

reloadron wrote:All of this digtal to analog stuff is really much simpler than everyone is making it.
All kidding aside. What single thing would you
do (or have done) differently to help?

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Post by Bigglez » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:58 pm

reloadron wrote: Oh and for the Nuts & Volts types here is the Volts:
That's a substation transformer fire.

Here's a real "volts" event

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reloadron
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Post by reloadron » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:26 pm

Good one! I snagged a bunch of them from an Arcs & Sparks website long ago. Each clip has a description of what happened. The sub station was I believe a series of failures of safety equipment and I think the fog just before it ignites was said to be when the oil filled transformers did their pressure release. Not sure.

Back more on topic, I think someone back in the beginning of the thread made a real good point. If the government is going to be ever so helpful with the transition the $40 coupons could have been for a converter box or worth $40 off the cost of a new TV.

This change was long overdue and the deadline was moved out time and time again.

Personally it really doesn't effect us. We run off cable and the new TV has digital tuning so if I chose over the air with a good antenna I guess we would do just fine. I found some of the posted numbers interesting, some of the guys did extensive homework & research.

I have fielded countless questions from my neighbors (especially my senior citizen neighbors) and friends, all of whom are cable or satellite and told them there will be no gloom and doom for them. Some of what I have seen and heard is much like the Y2K thing of years ago.

Thanks to the efforts of several posters I have come away with a better understanding of the financial aspects.For example how the little guy is not likely to come away with a frequency allocation. That sort of sucks and if it is in fact highest bidder that is sort of wrong. A lottery would have been nice I guess.

My only direct communication with the FCC was a warning letter in 1963 telling me they didn't like the 60 cycle hum in my 40 meter CW transmissions. I say cycle as we had not started using the term Hz yet. :) Apparently some here have to deal with the FCC on a regular basis. Sanity must be hard to maintain.

Ron

Bigglez
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Post by Bigglez » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:46 pm

reloadron wrote:I think the fog just before it ignites was said to be when the oil filled transformers did their pressure release.
Yes, and probably carcinogenic Poly BiPhenyls, too!
reloadron wrote: Back more on topic, I think someone back in the beginning of the thread made a real good point. If the government is going to be ever so helpful with the transition the $40 coupons could have been for a converter box or worth $40 off the cost of a new TV.
As noted earlier that doesn't work for me. Why
shorted the service life of an analog TV set (by
discounting the price of a new digital TV) instead of
modding the DTV signal (with a converter) to get the
full life span out of the analog TV?
reloadron wrote:This change was long overdue and the deadline was moved out time and time again.
Looks like the USA is ahead of EU, some of their
analog Tx continues to 2011.
reloadron wrote:the new TV has digital tuning so if I chose over the air with a good antenna I guess we would do just fine.
You need an ATSC tuner, not a digitally tuned NTSC type.
(PSAs didn't cover this topic, nor indicate that portable
TVs (camping, RVing) are affected by the DTV switch over.
reloadron wrote:Some of what I have seen and heard is much like the Y2K thing of years ago.
Or the switch to all digital cellular phones of several
years ago. I don't think AMPS phones are supported
today.
reloadron wrote:For example how the little guy is not likely to come away with a frequency allocation.
What would 'the little guy' do with a lottery won
channel or band assignment? They can't sell it. If
they can't use it, then it must be returned to the FCC.

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haklesup
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Post by haklesup » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:49 pm

That sort of sucks and if it is in fact highest bidder that is sort of wrong. A lottery would have been nice I guess.
As I understand it, bid and net worth make you qualified but if several bidders are qualified, it comes to technical merit. You need bucks AND brains. I'm not so sure it even is a bid in the eBay sewnse of the word. Not every slice of the pie has the same price tag. I looked on the website for a summary of the selectoin and application process but did not find it.

Take as an example the present testing of technologies for White Space transmission, they discuss 4 competitors.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a ... 2243A2.pdf

Source for above: half way down the page.
http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/

A lottery precludes most of the FCC stated objectives http://www.fcc.gov/spectrum/

Random choices even among qualified contestants is not in the public interest. I don't know what they do if a chioce is too close to call or if that ever even happens.

Although you can do almost anything in any part of the spectrum. Some applications are more efficient than others depending on frequency, modulation method, range and signal content. The FCC ensures that each application is thoroughly reviewed and the best use of spectrum is made.

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reloadron
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Post by reloadron » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:24 am

My real bad on the termonology.
ATSC Digital Tuner with QAM capability
That is how the tuner is listed for the set we finally bought. Though not a really avid watcher of TV, the new sure beats the old Magnavox that served well for about 13 years.

As to how the newly available frequencies will be sold or handed out? Like I said, I have learned more here reading post than I ever knew about it. Therefore I would be wise to just continue to read. :???:

I can now see where the thought of a lottery would not be a good idea at all.

Ron

stevech
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Post by stevech » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:37 pm

The FCC began auctioning spectrum licenses because licensees got free licenses on speculation then never got the capital to build/operate.

The FCC should have employed "use it or lose it" where the build-out criteria is clear.

Instead, the greedy bastards in the FCC have been doing these insane, illegal, <expletive> auctions for hundreds of billions of dollars dating back now to the beginning of the cellular era. You KNOW the FCC's overhead costs are 1,000% now. Leather chairs and cadillacs for everone!

Who gave the US Government the right to sell to the public what God gave us? (And now most other western countries, and Asia, are doing the same).

Those unnecessary spectrum acquisition costs are passed on to you and I in our cellular and other fees. Those costs are on top of the capital outlay the operators must make to build the system.

Next:
EPA sells oxygen consumption licenses.
DoT sells road use permits (hmm, the British are already doing this with GPS). Obama's WPA programs will, I predict, institute road use taxes to get you and I to pay for the shovel-leaners he speaks of doing).

It's a sad, sad comment.

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MrAl
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Post by MrAl » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:27 am

I guess the bandwidth sell out is sorta like the satallite sell out: who does near
space belong to legally? It takes a lot of bucks like 500 million to put one up
there and keep it there.

Yes, it's a shame that digital doesnt fade out like analog, it just goes out altogether.
That is going to be a problem for some people even with the signal strength increase.

The DTV converter box coupon was aimed at low income households that could not afford
a new tv set. This was invented just so that those people would not loose their
tv reception totally once they switched to digital. Although i agree that it should be
able to be used for new tv sets too, that would sort of defeat the purpose of it in
the first place. It's like food stamps: you are not allowed food stamps if you are
over a certain income bracket. It would be a misuse if people could get food stamps
so that they could go out and buy lobster every day instead of their more typical
everyday meal. Yes it will be a waste of money if they decide in the future to buy
a new set anyway, or if their old set breaks down, but that's just a side effect.
If everyone could get a coupon and go out and buy a new set everyone would do it,
and that's not really what the coupon is made for, although it is arguable that
since they are forcing this on EVERYONE and not just low income households that
maybe everyone SHOULD be able to get one, even to help with a new tv. I guess they
figure many households will be able to afford it, but some will not, and those
that will not will loose their tv completely unless someone helps them.
Like unemployment benefits...should everyone get them even though
they are working at a job every day?
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.

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haklesup
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Post by haklesup » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:31 am

Who gave the US Government the right to sell to the public what God gave us? (And now most other western countries, and Asia, are doing the same).
God may have written the rules we use to manipulate EM signals in the atmosphere and he may have provided that medium but since he didn't give us EM sense organs (except our eyes), the rest is all human innovation. Besides, religion has no business in technical policy.

Its no different than airspace that FAA controls, You can't just fly any plane anywhere you please, that would infringe on the rights of others. And I'm not sure how something can be illegal when its parameters were written into law by congress. The budget is essentially a bill that gets signed into civil law. Let me guess, your Libertarian

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Post by Bigglez » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:24 am

stevech wrote:Instead, the greedy bastards in the FCC have been doing these insane, illegal, <expletive> auctions for hundreds of billions of dollars dating back now to the beginning of the cellular era. You KNOW the FCC's overhead costs are 1,000% now. Leather chairs and cadillacs for everone!
Can you cite any evidence of this? Are you just speculating?
stevech wrote: Who gave the US Government the right to sell to the public what God gave us? (And now most other western countries, and Asia, are doing the same).
I thought the US constitution
separates state and religion and
has became the first amendment?
stevech wrote: Those unnecessary spectrum acquisition costs are passed on to you and I in our cellular and other fees. Those costs are on top of the capital outlay the operators must make to build the system.
Better to tax the people through a service fee for
an elective service (cellphones) than to tax everyone for
an admin (FCC). This has worked very well for the citizens
of the UK (who pay an annual "telly license" fee).

What alternative plan do you support?
stevech wrote: Obama's WPA programs will, I predict, institute road use taxes to get you and I to pay for the shovel-leaners he speaks of doing.
So your guy lost the election? Sour grapes! The last
eight years pale in comparision with any other
administration in recent years (Carter was a
lame duck when I emigrated to the US). Like it
or not, the US has dug a very deep hole and it will
take exceptional talent to salvage anything going forwards.
Perhaps you should put your effort into more positive
thoughts and be part of the "glass is half full" crowd?
stevech wrote:It's a sad, sad comment.
Again, what do you suggest as an alternative?
You can't bash something and not bring a
suggestion to the table.

We are now quite OT. I'd be happy to debate you
in PMs.

Until then, perhaps you'd like to read this interesting
article
that sheds some light on the current problems?

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