European Espresso maker installed and wired for US use

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veradusit
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European Espresso maker installed and wired for US use

Post by veradusit » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:02 pm

I purchased a European espresso maker. The inside specs read as follows:
208/220VAC 60Hz 1675W

I ran two hot 110V lines to two prongs of the three prong US plug (one ground) however the machine wouldn't work. I was told by someone at the electrical supply store that the European 220V spec is different than the US spec. He said that the three prongs consist of a hot 220, a neutral and a ground. and that the reason my machine probably didn't work, was that it was looking for the entire 220 from one rail, not both as I had wired it. Does anyone out there know more..? I'm also considering these step up converters that claims upwards of 3000W and 220V/240V.

Thanks in advance

dyarker
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Post by dyarker » Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:02 pm

Should have worked. One phase of 110V to one power prong, other phase of 110V to other power prong (not two 110V connections to same phase). Light duty (20A) U.S. 220V outlets/plugs look like 110V with power prongs rotated 90°. In the power cord of the espresso maker the yellow wire with green stripe is safety ground, same as green wire in U.S., connect that also.

Alternate way, a 2000W step-up autotransformer. Not cheap, but less than a big invertor.
Dale Y

Robert Reed
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Post by Robert Reed » Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:59 pm

Vera
When you say ' did not work', do you mean did not work right or did not work at all? I guess you were attempting to apply 220 volts across the plug (actually 240 volts in USA) by tapping into two 110 volt outlets (again actually 120 volts in USA). If this were the case, its quite possible the outlets used were tied to the same busbar in the main panel and would therefore give you zero volts across the plug. If my assumption is correct, take a voltage reading of the two outlet slots used to verify what I just said. If you read zero volts then you will have to find two oulets with opposite phases to test it. Even so, you will still need a 240 receptacle to use it. One thing seems odd and that is the nameplate power requirements. The 208/220 VAC matches Euro volts, but the 60 Hz doesn't as I think Euro uses a 50 Hz system.

bodgy
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Post by bodgy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:45 pm

That setup doesn't sound correct to me, mind you I'm in 230v 50Hz country.

The two phases would surely need to be in series, exactly the way I'd wire a mains transformer primary.

So you should have

--------- Ph 110 --------------- 240 L Appliance Brown


--------- ret 110
| connect these two together
---------- Ph 110

---------- ret --------------- 240 N Appliance Blue


--------------------------------------------------- Earth/Ground Green/Yellow

As far as the frequency is concerned, then the only thing I'd expect to be out of wack, might be the timer.

There ought to be a 13A fuse in the 240v cable.

A multimeter across this will confirm if you have 220v approx.

European equipment will operate between 220 - 250v though it will have a plate showing a nominal 230 or 240v

Colin
On a clear disk you can seek forever.

dyarker
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Post by dyarker » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:58 pm

Yes, Euro power is 50Hz. I didn't even notice that veradusit put 60Hz because 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. Maybe he mis-read or made typo. The only problem I've had using U.S. 60Hz appliances through a step-down transformer at 50Hz was a microwave oven who's digital clock/timer counted power cycles vs internal crystal oscillator. The clock ran slow (5/6), but cooked just fine for 20 years.

I assumed (yeah, not always a good idea) he meant didn't work at all. It's kind hard to mess up a fancy water heater. Either it has 220V or zero.

As long as I'm here again: In Euro wiring blue is hot and brown is neutral. However, for appliances that are cord and plug, it does not matter because the plugs and outlets are symetrical (can be plugged in either way). That means the appliances are designed with both power leads completely isolated from chassis. It is easier to safely use a Euro appliance on U.S. 220V than the other way around. (see my page at http://www.yarker-dsyc.info/Notebook/Te ... oTran.html if interested)

-------------------------------------------------------
added because I was still typing while Colin posted.

Not quite right:
--------- Ph 110 --------------- 240 L Appliance Brown


--------- ret 110
| connect these two together <- this would pop breaker immediately
---------- Ph 110

---------- ret --------------- 240 N Appliance Blue

--------------------------------------------------- Earth/Ground Green/Yellow
Should be:

--------- Phase A 110 --------------- 240 Appliance Brown


---------- Phase B 110 --------------- 240 Appliance Blue


--------------------------------------------------- Earth/Ground Green/Yellow

There is no place to connect neutral, and no need.

Colin,
If wiring two separate windings of a tranformer in series to make twice the voltage, then your original schetch would be correct. But ground the center connection and top and bottom are 180° out of phase. That is what U.S. 220 is. Center tap at pole transformer is grounded at transformer and usually at entrance panel and is called neutral. The two hot leads are each 110 to neutral, but 220 between them because they are 180° out of phase.

Cheers,
Dale Y

bodgy
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Post by bodgy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:06 pm

I'm sorry Dyarker, I have to disagree slightly.


Brown is Live/Phase/Active call it what you will.

Blue is Neutral/Return.

If the device doesn't use a transformer, then connecting these the wrong way around may negate the safety earth - om other words if it uses a live chassis (quite possible) if the live is connected to the expected Neutral terminal and a fault occurs at a later time, the casing will have the full peak mains going into it. This asumes that the neutral/return wire is connected to earth back at the power station. there are some countries in Eastern Europe that have a floating earth, in that the neutral is not connected to earth, anywhere in the system.

If the device does use a transformer then as you say it doesn't matter how they are connected.

I don't quite understand why you don't need the neutral cable connected anywhere within the system., because then surely you are referencing active to earth and not to neutral.

Doesn't US power to the home come out of the distribution transformer pole as

-------------------PH (a)


Center tapped transformer -------- Neutral


------------------PH (b)


Whoops now I've drawn it out, I see; but then how does this get referenced to earth?

Colin
On a clear disk you can seek forever.

dyarker
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Post by dyarker » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:55 pm

I was editing while you where posting again.

On blue/brown hot/neutral thing, I'll plead no contest till I check my sources again.

But like I said, for cord and plug 220 appliances, it doesn't matter because plugs go into sockets either way. And, like you said there may be countries where the power floats. This means appliance manufacturers can make no assumtions. The appliance simply needs 220 between the leads, and all circuitry is isolated.

Yes, to your new schetch. Anwser to how it gets reference question is in edit in my previous post.
I don't quite understand why you don't need the neutral cable connected anywhere within the system, because then surely you are referencing active to earth and not to neutral.
The circuitry inside a 220 appliance is a straight 220 load, not two 110 loads in series. There is no place to connect a neutral. The appliance only needs 220 between power leads to operate. In most of the 220 world one line will be neutral, but the appliance doesn't care one way or the other. Not referencing to earth anywhere IN THE APPLIANCE. Current comes on one lead, and returns on other.

In some 220 U.S. appliances the load might be two 110 loads in series and need a neutral connection in the center. In U.S. ovens/stove tops and clothes dryers, the heating elements are 220 and are powered phase to phase; while fans, drum rotation motors and clocks are 110 and powered by one phase to neutral. With this unbalanced loading of phases, the neutral is a must. (I know it is ugly and not logical, but I didn't invent it.)

Hope I explained better. If not, maybe that's why I stay a technician and don't become a teacher (where is the wink emoticon?) :grin:

C U L -
Dale Y

dyarker
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Post by dyarker » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:24 am

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phas ... olor_codes Colin is correct about the wire color code.

If I could remember where I looked it up a couple years ago I'd complain.

In the meantime, I've got to ftp a correction to my page.

C U L guys,
Dale Y

Bigglez
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Re: European Espresso maker installed and wired for US use

Post by Bigglez » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:48 am

veradusit wrote:I purchased a European espresso maker. The inside specs read as follows:
208/220VAC 60Hz 1675W
Greetings veradusit,

Quite possibly your coffee maker was built for
worldwide sales. Perhaps the maker expected it
to run from single-phase 220VAC in Europe, or
from two phases of a USA/Canada power circuit?

A large USA restaurant kitchen would likely have
three-phase power that gives the magic number
"208V" (Due to some arcane utility practiceonly
in the USA). Your coffee maker is a significant
load for USA domestic 120V utility power.

I would expect the label to read "50 or 60"Hz,
can you confirm?

Perhaps the brand is sold in the USA, and you can
find a service manual or customer support tech
(to explain how to safely connect the coffee maker
to the power)?

Comments Welcome!

dyarker
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Post by dyarker » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:00 am

Your coffee maker is a significant load for USA domestic 120V utility power
???? 120V ???

At 220V about 7.5A.
Dale Y

veradusit
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Thanks for all of the replies

Post by veradusit » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:44 am

First some background. I bought the machine on Ebay. The seller was a company that had intended to carry the line in the US, they decided not to. They were left with a demo unit that they in turn sold on ebay.

The unit is made by ECM Spain. The model is the Veronica. There is one company carrying the 110V version in the US;

(http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_m ... ronica.htm)

The tag reads exactly as written 208/220VAC 60Hz 1675W.

Not the suspected 50Hz.

the original cord looked exactly like a three prong US cord except one prong was turned 90 degrees. In fact in my laundry room I had an outlet faceplate that would have accommodated the plug EXCEPT for the cord's prong that was turned to the horizontal position was on the right and the faceplate's "T" slot was on the left. But as far as size, it would have slipped right in. I replaced that original cord with a US dryer style three prong plug.

As far as not working, there were a few things that did "semi-function" the led light came on and when you pressed the steam button, it sounded like it was "trying" to work. My suspicion was that it was actually getting 1/2 the power it needed.
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veradusit
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One other thing

Post by veradusit » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:50 am

I just looked at the original plug/cord

the wires are heavy gauge Black, White, and Green

Bigglez
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Re: Thanks for all of the replies

Post by Bigglez » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:41 pm

Greetings veradusit,
veradusit wrote: The tag reads exactly as written 208/220VAC 60Hz 1675W.

Not the suspected 50Hz.
Okay, so you have the 'export' model for a commercial
kitchen (with access to two phase 208V OR 220V service).
veradusit wrote:In fact in my laundry room I had an outlet faceplate that would have accommodated the plug EXCEPT for the cord's prong that was turned to the horizontal position was on the right and the faceplate's "T" slot was on the left.
Your laundry dryer runs from two phase 240V (aka 220V)
and uses a "250V two pole 3 wire grounding connector"
to NEMA standard 6-20P.

Your illustration is for the similar NEMA 5-20P which has
the blades in reverse (the N is on the left of the socket,
and turned 90deg) compared to a US wall outlet NEMA 5-15.

Off the top of my head, now that we know the history
of your coffee maker, is that someone in the USA put
on that plug to demo the unit.
veradusit wrote:I replaced that original cord with a US dryer style three prong plug.
Did it work (in a 220V dryer outlet)?

Comments Welcome!
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veradusit
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narrowing it down

Post by veradusit » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:35 am

Here is my understanding. I have a single phase, 220v machine. Here is my question, if I grab the live wire from two outlets that are on separate posts from the panel can I pair those two together to get single phase 220v (or 240v to be technical) will that work if they are non connected breakers? Or do I need a new run from the panel on a connected breaker like a dryer breaker?
Thanks for the insight

Bigglez
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Re: narrowing it down

Post by Bigglez » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:15 am

Greetings veradusit,
veradusit wrote: Here is my question, if I grab the live wire from two outlets that are on separate posts from the panel can I pair those two together to get single phase 220v (or 240v to be technical) will that work if they are non connected breakers?
Yes, but its not good practice. If for some reason one
breaker opens and the other doesn't you oulet will
be live (at 120V). Both breakers should have their
handles tied together. (I believe this is an NEC code
requirement).
veradusit wrote:Or do I need a new run from the panel on a connected breaker like a dryer breaker? Thanks for the insight
Correct.

You didn't answer my question.
bigglez wrote:
veradusit wrote:
I replaced that original cord with a US dryer style three prong plug.
Did it work (in a 220V dryer outlet)?
Comments Welcome!

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