Strange AC Power Issue

[Robert Reed]

Hackles up

Your bulb test triggered a memory from my youth. Now I have never done this myself and was a child when observing this. I grew up in a lakefront community and as to be expected there were a fair amount of fishermen living there. When they ran short of bait, they would drive two stakes into the ground about 30 or 40 feet apart. They would then attach a powered down neutral and hot wire to each stake with a 5 amp fuse in series with the hot wire. The area was then cleared and power applied for 5 or 10 minutes. Then the cicuit was deenergized and they collected crawlers that were driven to the surface. Rarely did a fuse blow, but there were plenty of crawlers to go around

I am not I sure I understan d this situation in your post -
" For the purpose of dumping large amounts of stray current to protect people, you would need a low impedance ground. "

This is the duty of the low impedance of the safety ground. In the case of someone coming into contact with a hot wire and that person being firmly grounded, there is no protection in any situatiom ( other than GFI protection). In fact the lower the ground impedance, the more current that would pass through them. However the normal range of ground resistance would be quite small compared to an average humans body resistance. And we are talking 240 volts or less here. !3 Kv and up presents a whole different story. If I have misread you here I am sorry and in that case you can clear me up.

[Chris Smith]

Like I said not only the below,but in one shop a broken Hot wire on a fan hit the Cement wall when it tipped over and exploded with a dead short and lots of sparks. Positive hits Cement wall.

Ground and slabs may be great grounds that can absorb your lost ability in the neutral wire.

Every different soil and test will show different results.

And considering My work shop only needed to dissipate 17 volts, no wonder it worked soo well.

You can also make a test by placing a small load between positive and a good Earth ground connection.

Place a small pot between the load return and the earth connection so they you can "not feed all the power" back to ground and with the resistance up steam have your meter read [adjust the pot] 100 volts on the neutral return before the pot. This will mimic a poor return wire.

Now jumper the up stream pot connection directly to ground and watch that reading go from 100 volts closer towards the 120 volt total. [not perfect?]

What you created with the pot is a bad return neutral setting, what you created with the ground is a way for that lost voltage to bypass that bad neutral and be used.

Wikipedia.org:
Earths are commonly used in electricity supply companies' wiring
and occasionally for fixed wiring in buildings and for some
specialist applications where there is little choice like railways
and trams. Since normal circuit currents in the neutral conductor
can lead to objectionable or dangerous differences between local
earth potential and the neutral and to protect against neutral
breakages, special precautions such as frequent rodding down to
earth, use of cables where the combined neutral and earth completely
surrounds the phase conductor(s), and thicker than normal equipotential
bonding must be considered to ensure the system is safe.

[haklesup]

Your understanding is essentially correct, a person contacting hot and earth ground could be shocked. You don't necessarily need much current flowing to hurt a person.

As I see it, the ground bonding system (which includes the safety ground conductor) serve several purposes. One is to provide an alternate route back to the neutral node, that covers a short fault to a grounded appliance chassis. Another is to provide a universal ground voltage reference. This is beyond your control because it includes ground connections at many points in the distribution system including your neighbors house. A third would be a current dump, not for house current but especially for Lightning and transmission system failures (blown transformer or downed wire in a storm or other severe failure) when the neutral might get energized.

To get a little more OT, an ESD grounding system would have very high impedance ~1M to allow the bleed off of charge but not allow the current to be very high. Low current protects both the person and the ESD sensitive device you may be handling (like in the CDM or Charged device model where a charged component discharges to a grounded operator or work surface)

Ground has many meanings and rolls in electronics and they are not always equivelent or interchangable but they frequently overlap (ground provides several functions simultaniously depending on context and POV).

[haklesup]

And considering My work shop only needed to dissipate 17 volts, no wonder it worked soo well.

17VAC at what fault current? You got rid of an anomolous voltage on a neutral but if a higher current short develops, the voltage just might come right back.

[Chris Smith]

One example not including the harmonics issue or others. [My shop]

You plug in a old two wire drill motor made out of aluminum.

The plug has two wires, and socket has two wires. The plug is dedicated so you cant reverse the wires.

You run the drill and measure the plug wires and the positive gives you the normal [for argument sake] 120v in.

The return wire should be close to zero meaning all the power has found a good home and is dissipated away from the plug.

IT wasn’t, the return wire showed 17 volts present. [opposite of 103]

103 volts were being disapated, 17 were not. [1/5]

That left in your hand, a aluminum drill that was hot to touch [different reasons, different equipment] or 1/5 of the total voltage.

If you happen to be also grounded, you were the new path way for that excess voltage. [Maybe, maybe not, buts still there and hot]

I removed all the two wire plugs and rewired the work shop with three plug wall sockets.

One positive came in, One neutral return wire went out and a earth ground was also added for the “Groundâ€

[Robert Reed]

Hacklesup

Well I think we agree on what you posted. But we've probably all seen storm pictures and newscasts of downed residential power lines lying on wet lawns and pavement and just steadily arcing away like crazy and sometimes not arcing at all as making actual contact with the earth -all depending on how the wind positions it. These may or may not trip line fuses or substation breakers depending on the actual fault current which would depend on the actual ground resistance at that point. A downed wire in the area of the utility poles ground rod would be more likely to trip due to a very short path to ELCO's safety ground. In contrast, one lonely squirrel across the phases will usually imediatedly trip breakers if its contact area was sufficient. In this case I am referring to the uppermost wires on the pole (5KV or 13.2 KV) that are direct phase connections back to the distribution station. This level of voltage is sufficient to fry the squirrel and for a moment reduce it's resistance to nil. These particular breakers are called reclosers and will do that three times before total lockout. But almost always one reclosure will suffice as the squirrel is all but atomized by then. The difference here is that tripping will occur on a good conductive short (squirrel)as opposed to a somewhat variable resistive short (earth). At the major substations 33KV and up they sense ground faults by an amazing system of protective relaying. These 'silent sentinals' look at every aspect of the system distribution as its happening and react accordingly.Especially in the case of hi-lines, rather than relying on ground fault current entirely, they look at phase shifts that occur simultaneously and then do their intended job when it is outside the limits.

[Chris Smith]

An interesting small experiment I did just now, also along the same lines that a ground is a good conductor as mentioned. Opposite to what is commonly suggested.

Two ground poles spaced apart and one pole is energized with the positive lead of three 9 volt batteries for a total of 27 volts.

The volt meter is place on the remaining negative terminal of the battery and the other ground pole to read 27 volts, or exactly the same as the two battery terminals + and - , for a zero difference.

Not too many ohms there? If there were a high ohm count it would have showed up a little better.

Then I checked my metal tool box just sitting on the ground, several feet away and the same 27 volts was read. So much for that bad ground.

My next test will be to see just how far three 9 volt batteries will go. I may start at 50 feet then go as far as 200?

If a ground was soo poor, why does it conduct 3 batteries through one pole to the other pole with no loss, or absorb the lost 17 volts from my work shop that the neutral wire wouldn’t absorb on its own?

special precautions such as frequent rodding down to
earth, use of cables where the combined neutral and earth completely
surrounds the phase conductor(s), and thicker than normal equipotential
bonding must be considered to ensure the system is safe.

Thanks Al, some just dont get it, still?

Even using a nail as a ground conductor, inches long, and placing a 100 watt bulb from the 120v to bulb to nail in the ground, less than 5 volts is lost at the neutral lead of the bulb that did go into the ground as its neutral, and Im not even using the normal neutral return wire, just a nail.

5 volts lost from power directly to ground, even less if that same ground only had to pick up the neutral wire losses. In my case it was only 17 volts, not 120v direct

Placing a proper ground pole into the ground, using the neutral wires that do exist, and ensuring its is the better ground situation and not just sand, Im sure all but less one volt would disappear.

The light will light up the same with the neutral wire or the earth pole as its neutral, showing that ground on its own is a great return, specifically for safety purposes.

No mater how you look at it,... it works just fine, and it is a standard practice as mentioned.



Another myth bites the dust......

Chris seems to be under the illusion that utility companys some how use earth as part of their distribution system.Nothing could be further from the truth. In terms of efficient power delivery, the earth is a terrible conductor. I worked for a major electric utility company for over 10 years and I learned just about every facet of their operations. I have conducted substation ground tests on several occasions. These were measured at 100 ft distances from the station and using professional BIDDLE earth ground resistance test aparatus. The results were generally 10 to 60 ohms and would vary somewhat by season. Our area has a fairly high water table, but out west I have heard they run well over 200 ohms on these tests. Substaions have a ground system that would put commercial AM antenna systems to shame, so these readings are far more favorable than any residential or commercial system (unless they were built in the middle of the Okenfenocee swamp).Now just imagine sending 20 amperes for 1/2 mile thru this stuff.
In Single Wire Earth Return

(SWER) electrical distribution systems, costs are saved by using just a single high voltage conductor for the power grid, while routing the AC return current through the earth. This system is mostly used in rural areas where large earth currents will not otherwise cause hazards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

[rshayes]

Hello MrAl,

The type of ground rod that Robert Reed described is essentially that called for in the NEC, 8 feet long with a diameter between 1/2 and 3/4 inch (depending on the material).

The NEC has a paragraph on ground resistance:

250.56 Resistance of Rod, Pipe, and Plate electrodes. A single electrode consisting of a rod, pipe, or plate that does not have a resistance to ground of 25 ohms or less shall be augmented by one additional electrode of any of the types specified by 260.52(A)(2) through (A)(7). Where multiple rod, pipe, or plate electrodes are installed to meet the requirements of this section, they shall not be less than 1.8 m (6 ft) apart.

From this it appears that in normal soil, the resistance is likely to be under 25 ohms, but in some cases it may be substantially higher.

Broadcast stations use much more elaborate grounding schemes. They may have systems as elaborate as 100 or more radials over 100 feet long buried in the ground. Terman gives the radiation resistance of a 1/4 wave vertical antenna as about 36 ohms and an achievable efficiency of 90 percent. This would imply a ground resistance of about 4 ohms.

Measuring the resistance of a ground is not simple. You actually need three ground electrodes that are spaced well away from each other. Basically, you would have to measure the three resistances between the electrodes and then do a delta-wye transformation to get the resistances of the three individual electrodes.

I don't thik the Robert Reed's figures are very far out of line, especially in a dry year like this one, or in sandy soil out in the desert where the water table may be hundreds of feet down.

[Chris Smith]

The problem with hiding behind the math is it becomes just one more way to miss the bigger picture all together, making the whole proposition just a myth.

Both Al and my own writings in this whole post, are the only true and unchanged facts so far while the rest of the posts here are at best 25% true, and 25 % even relevant to the issue.

There still is no limit, danger, or any other harm in multiple earth grounds tied to the neutral, in fact like mentioned by Al, it is standard a practice.

Every thing said is simply true, every comment to the contrary is at best shady, while a only few here got it right.

Below is just one more example of why not to take the responses to this post too serious.

Chris seems to be under the illusion that utility companys some how use earth as part of their distribution system. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In Single Wire Earth Return
(SWER) electrical distribution systems, costs are saved by using just a single high voltage conductor for the power grid, while routing the AC return current through the earth. This system is mostly used in rural areas where large earth currents will not otherwise cause hazards.

[rshayes]

Hello MrAl,

From one of your previous posts:

"Here's some quotes from various sources:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whatis.com:
The earth, which forms the ultimate ground, has the ability to
absorb or dissipate an unlimited amount of electrical charge.

Wikipedia.org:
Earths are commonly used in electricity supply companies' wiring
and occasionally for fixed wiring in buildings and for some
specialist applications where there is little choice like railways
and trams. Since normal circuit currents in the neutral conductor
can lead to objectionable or dangerous differences between local
earth potential and the neutral and to protect against neutral
breakages, special precautions such as frequent rodding down to
earth, use of cables where the combined neutral and earth completely
surrounds the phase conductor(s), and thicker than normal equipotential
bonding must be considered to ensure the system is safe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are they all BS? "

The Earth can absorb charge, but this isn't very relevant. Every year, a number of people are struck by lightning as the Earth "absorbs charge". It doesn't affect the Earth very much, but if you are the principle human participant it matters a great deal. The object of the game is to avoid being in the path when charge is being transferred from one point to another. This is practically the entire point of the electrical code.

Utility companies in the United States do not use earth grounds as current carrying paths under normal conditiions. The purpose of the earth ground is to minimize the electrical potential between the utility wiring and the local environment. With the wiring grounded at one point, the maximum voltage to ground on a 110 VAC line is simply that, 110 VAC. If this part of the system was not grounded, a little leakage current could raise the potential on the power wiring to thousands of volts on the neutral, with another 110 VAC added to the hot side.

Normally, the secondary of the last transformer in the distribution system is grounded at that point. From this point, 2 hot leads and a neutral are carrried to each house. At the entrance to each house, the neutral is connected to a local grounding system by a single jumper. The current through the neutral lead will cause some voltage drop. This may cause the individual building grounds to be at slightly different potentials, since the ground impedances are high relative to the resistance of the neutral conductor, but this is unnoticeable, since you are very rarely in two houses at once. These are the earth connections that the utility system uses (literally millions of them), but they are not used to carry current. They are used to establish a reference potential for everything connected to the secondary circuit of that transformer.

The rest of the paragraph deals with railroads and trams "where there is little choice". An electric locomotive uses a voltage source of thousands of volts in the overhead wire or third rail. The current drawn is thousands of amps, and this flows through the steel rails, which have a moderate resistance. There can be a substantial voltage drop along the rails. A ground rod at one point will tend to minimize the voltage difference between the rails and ground at that point. When the train moves some distance away, the rails will increase in voltage relative to the ground at the second point. If this is a matter of a few hundred volts, the locomotive won't notice it, since it is a small fraction of its supply voltage. If you have one foot on the rail and another in a mud puddle, I suspect that you will notice it very much. A ground rod at this point will equalize the potential between the rails and the ground and reduce the hazard. In this case, frequent ground rods are desirable. However, few people have an electric railway between the various parts of their house.

The earth is only moderately conductive. On the average, it will have a ground potential. The potential in local areas may be quite different, and the purpose of a ground rod is to minimize the difference in potential between the local earth and the local wiring system.

The NEC also requires that all grounds in a structure be connected together. This forms the grounding system. It is also required that most of the metal associated with the electrical system, such as outlet boxes, junction boxes, and conduit also be connected to the grounding system. Normal electrical current is kept out of this system and flows solely through the hot and neutral wires. There is one connection between the neutral and the grounding system to keep the neutral wire at about the same potential. Current flow in the neutral wire may result in voltage differences, but these are kept inside grounded boxes where they cannot be reached. The basic idea is to maintain all exposed conductive parts of the electrical system at the same voltage. In the event of a fault, the ground fault system will conduct the fault current back to the neutral lead where the electrical service enters the build without allowing the fault current to flow through the ground system and change the potential between exposed metallic parts.

The SWER (Single Wire Earth Return) system that Chris mentioned does use the earth as a conductor. It is not used in this country at all. It is used in rural Australia and New Zealand, but most likely for only a few percent of the population even there.

The distribution voltage is 19 KV, resulting in a load current less than 8 amps at most of the load points. The ground rod is about 20 ft long as opposed to the 8 ft normally used in the United States. Even so, the ground impedance is given as 5 to 10 ohms, which is consistent with the figures given by Robert Reed, considering the longer rod length. The voltage rise in the immediate vicinity of this ground can be 40 to 80 volts relative to a ground a short distance away.

This system requires a 19 KV step down transformer at each load point. This is only economically reasonable when the cost of the transformer is less than the cost of the wire and insulators between the load points. There are very few areas in the world where the population density is this low. In most other areas, a conventional system would be both cheaper and safer.

[Chris Smith]

The ground is so poor, it makes that perfect contact between you and the lightning?

The ground is so poor, they use it as a return path for Single Wire Earth Return?

The Ground is so poor, they use it as the backup for Railroads and Tram leaks?

The ground is so poor it’s a back up for neutrals?

The ground is so poor it accepts leaks from all neutrals picking up the slack?

The ground is so poor you can light a light bulb using it as a neutral return?

Any safety use where the ground improves these situations except the first, is why it is common practice to use the ground for a neutral any time there is a danger of power not returning back to the dedicated neutral wire.

It doesn’t take away anything what so ever from the situation, it improves the situation.

Since normal circuit currents in the neutral conductor
can lead to objectionable or dangerous differences ......

special precautions such as frequent rodding down to
earth, use of cables where the combined neutral and earth .......these arent negative factors, they don’t remove any safety factor, they improve them.

The SWER (Single Wire Earth Return) system that Chris mentioned does use the earth as a conductor. It is not used in this country at all. It is used in rural Australia and New Zealand, but most likely for only a few percent of the population even there.

There is over 190,000 kilometers of SWER currently in use in rural areas of Australia alone.

[serving 170 people per mile]

Bottom line, when safety is an issue, tie your neutral to ground as often as possible to alleviate the problem. There is no down side to the issue. This is already a standard practice, it decreases the risk, and there simply is no evidence to the contrary that says it is dangerous, just half stories of mostly irrelevant subjects and posts.

Its obvious here that most of the web readers are trying to prove a negative to the practice of using tie ins for the neutral to earth ground.

Where as the more I read on the subject the only thing that constantly appears is that my 30 year practice is continually backed up with every page, and each time for different reasons.

Just because I never studied the tram system power or rural power usage in Australia changes nothing what so ever.

Reading more material simply confirms what I have followed for more than 30 years, and that is the practice of multiple ground neutrals are the proper way of dealing with the problem, and its not some isolated incident.

[rshayes]

"Bottom line, when safety is an issue, tie your neutral to ground as often as possible to alleviate the problem. There is no down side to the issue. This is already a standard practice, it decreases the risk, and there simply is no evidence to the contrary that says it is dangerous, just half stories of mostly irrelevant subjects and posts. "

"Where as the more I read on the subject the only thing that constantly appears is that my 30 year practice is continually backed up with every page, and each time for different reasons. "

"Reading more material simply confirms what I have followed for more than 30 years, and that is the practice of multiple ground neutrals are the proper way of dealing with the problem, and its not some isolated incident."

On the contrary.

The 2005 National Electric Code specifically forbids this type of connection in section 250.24(A)(5). It is not a common practice. It is illegal under this code, and probably a substantial number of its earlier versions (The 2005 code is the 50th edition).

The original problem in Chris's wiring was probably a loose connection in the neutral wire. All of these connections are required to be accessable. An apprentice electrician with practically no experience shoud be able to find and repair this problem in less than an hour using a voltmeter and a screwdriver. It doesn't need "30 yeaars experience".

[Chris Smith]

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine ... nston.html

No where in the section 250.24(A)(5). does it state this cant be done, in fact figure 6 shows it to be called “Equipment bondingâ€

[rshayes]

It appears that Chris does not understand the difference between the supply side and the load side.

When electric service enters a building, there is a device called a "disconnecting means". In old houses, this may be a simple knife switch, newer houses usually use a large capacity circuit breaker that can be manually operated.

This divides the wiring into two regions. The wiring from the power source to the disconnecting device is called the "supply side". The wiring after the disconnecting device is called the "load side". Different rules apply in each area. If there are external transformers on the supply side, they may require an additional ground connection to the neutral.

At the location of the disconnecting device, a single jumper is connected between the neutral wire and the building grounding system.

In general section 250.24(A)(5) specifically prohibits additional connections to ground from the neutral on the load side. There are footnotes indicating three very narrow exceptions. Bypassing a defective neutral wire is not one of them. Figure 6 does not show an additional connection to ground on the load side. It shows the jumper from neutral to the building ground that is permitted only at the disconnecting device.

All of the connections in the electrical system are required to be accessable so that these connnections can be checked and repaired if necessary. They may be in enclosures, junction boxes, or outlet boxes, but they will be accessable.

There is no excuse for not fixing the neutral wire so that it performs its proper function. This should take only a few minutes for someone with "30 years experience", possibly a little longer for an apprentice with no experience.

[Chris Smith]

Try again, but this time blow your smoke some where else.

So if the grounded (neutral) conductor carries current in normal operation, then there should be efforts to maintain the insulation integrity of the grounded (neutral) conductor and to generally avoid multiple connections to grounded items.

No mention here either of its illegal? Gee I wonder why?

More ground poles, just dont connect them all together.

It appears that Chris does not understand the difference between the supply side and the load side.

Gee, where was that equipment up stream or down stream, or as you called it supply or load? Only one place possible, but you must have missed that?

Equipment bonding, was that supply or load, I cant figure that one out.

How convienent, you just have to find that fault, only problem is, look some where else.

Sound like semantics trying to avoid reality.

Sounds like more B.S., blown smoke.

(4) Grounding Electrode Conductor, Multiple Separately Derived Systems. Where there are multiple separately derived systems, the grounded neutral terminal of each derived system can be grounded (earthed) to a common grounding electrode conductor. The grounding electrode conductor and grounding electrode tap must comply with (a) through (c). Figure 250–78

Grounded Conductor As a Grounding and Bonding Means
The NEC clearly permits the grounded conductor to be used for grounding on the line side of the service disconnect as indicated in 250.24(A) and 250.142(A). The grounded conductor is also permitted as a bonding means on the supply side of the service disconnecting means as provided in 250.92(B)(1) [figure 6].

(6) Bonding. To ensure that dangerous voltage from a ground fault is removed quickly, structural metal and metal piping in the area served by a separately derived system must be bonded to the grounded neutral conductor at the separately derived system in accordance with 250.104(D).

(7) Grounding (Earthing) Electrode. The grounding electrode conductor must terminate to a grounding electrode that is located as close as possible, and preferably in the same area as, the system bonding jumper. The grounding electrode must be the nearest one of the following: Figure 250–79
(1) Metal water pipe electrode as specified in 250.52(A)(1).
(2) Structural metal electrode as specified in 250.52(A)(2).

Exception 1: Where none of the electrodes listed in (1) or (2) is available, one of the following is permitted:

Concrete-encased electrode encased by not less than 2 in. of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with earth, consisting of not less than 20 ft of electrically conductive steel reinforcing bars or rods not less than 1/2 in. in diameter [250.52(A)(3)].

A ground ring encircling the building or structure, buried not less than 30 in. below grade, consisting of not less than 20 ft of bare copper conductor not smaller than 2 AWG [250.52(A)(4) and 250.53(F)].

A ground rod having not less than 8 ft of contact with the soil [250.52(A)(5) and 250.53(G)].

Other metal underground systems, piping systems, or underground tanks [250.52(A)(7)].

Grounded Neutral Conductor. Where the system bonding jumper is installed at the secondary system .....


In actual English as stated by this listed post before,..... don’t mix your neutral ground and actual grounds together, as the EQUIPMENT BONDING to earth ground may suffer and feed back may occur.

Section 250.24(A) requires that a grounding electrode conductor be connected to the grounded conductor of an ac service. Section 250.24(C) requires the service grounded conductor (usually a neutral) to be brought to and bonded to each service

If you really must find fault in something, look at the produce stand, Im sure you will find a bad apple or two there, just not here.

Here on the other hand, you fool your self well, you may fool the clique, but other than any one who can read for them self can see the black and white for them selves.

Back to square one, ITS perfectly safe to ground your neutrals especially if they already have a leak or harmonics, or if the return wasn’t up to code and carries back the full load. The NEC says it must be at least the same or bigger size, but if harmonics arise, or the load has a leak, etc, just add in extra neutral to ground dedicated pole.

Nothing you find in any other post here is contrary to the code, the practice, or any thing else. It is an attempt at attacking the messenger because some here didnt like the message, nothing more.

Only one here that cant read is the person trying real hard to find fault, but to this day, hasn’t found a single thing yet.

Semantics, bad examples, toss the baby out with the bath water, all less that stellar for any one trying to learn. All desperate for a negative that dosent even exist.

In actual English and any post you draw up from the NEC, don’t mix your neutral ground and actual grounds together, as the EQUIPMENT BONDING to earth ground mat suffer. Harmonics

If you really must find fault in something, go look at the produce stand, Im sure you will find a bad apple there.

Here on the other hand, you fool your self well, you may fool the clique, but any other that can read for them self can see the black and white for them selves.

Back to square one, ITS perfectly well to ground your neutrals especially if they already have a leakage or harmonics, or if the return wasn’t up to code to carry back the load.

The NEC says it must be at least the same or bigger sizes, but if harmonics arise, or the load has a leak,, ad in extra neutral to ground dedicated poles.

List afer list and not one single mention of the fact that you cant add in more safety grounded poles. [not one]

Keep trying, keep up the smoke, but good luck, there isnt any thing there.

If you get any worse in these attempts you will need a new name like Posty 11?

He liked to talk about ground wires as if that had any to do with the price of tea in china either?

My experience started in 1971, and fixing things in the wall doesn’t take minutes, it often takes a carpenter or a contractor.

Built in 1949, torn apart if you had your way with some one elses money.