Strange AC Power Issue
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RSHayes
"There is no guessing required. Chris is not an Electrical Engineer"
Chris has over 4000 posts and I think everyone figured that out a many years ago on his second or third post. Chris seems to be under the illusion that utility companys some how use earth as part of their distribution system.Nothing could be further from the truth. In terms of efficient power delivery, the earth is a terrible conductor. I worked for a major electric utility company for over 10 years and I learned just about every facet of their operations. I have conducted substation ground tests on several occasions. These were measured at 100 ft distances from the station and using professional BIDDLE earth ground resistance test aparatus. The results were generally 10 to 60 ohms and would vary somewhat by season. Our area has a fairly high water table, but out west I have heard they run well over 200 ohms on these tests. Substaions have a ground system that would put commercial AM antenna systems to shame, so these readings are far more favorable than any residential or commercial system (unless they were built in the middle of the Okenfenocee swamp).Now just imagine sending 20 amperes for 1/2 mile thru this stuff. When chris is shown wrong on his comments, he usually starts to drift off subject and counteract his previos post. I get tired of chasing him all over left feild when the problem still clearly lies at home plate. He does not seem to be able to communicate in clear engineering dialouge and I for one cannot understand his form of writing. It is for these reasons that I usually state my case and then be done with it as He will go on incessantly to get the last reply in. I think that in his own mind he views this as a victory, and if that is the case, it's fine with me, as learning knowledge and then seeing that proven by actual experience is proof enough that it is correct. My main point here is that all of us could debate with him for a month and in the end he will still have the last word.
"There is no guessing required. Chris is not an Electrical Engineer"
Chris has over 4000 posts and I think everyone figured that out a many years ago on his second or third post. Chris seems to be under the illusion that utility companys some how use earth as part of their distribution system.Nothing could be further from the truth. In terms of efficient power delivery, the earth is a terrible conductor. I worked for a major electric utility company for over 10 years and I learned just about every facet of their operations. I have conducted substation ground tests on several occasions. These were measured at 100 ft distances from the station and using professional BIDDLE earth ground resistance test aparatus. The results were generally 10 to 60 ohms and would vary somewhat by season. Our area has a fairly high water table, but out west I have heard they run well over 200 ohms on these tests. Substaions have a ground system that would put commercial AM antenna systems to shame, so these readings are far more favorable than any residential or commercial system (unless they were built in the middle of the Okenfenocee swamp).Now just imagine sending 20 amperes for 1/2 mile thru this stuff. When chris is shown wrong on his comments, he usually starts to drift off subject and counteract his previos post. I get tired of chasing him all over left feild when the problem still clearly lies at home plate. He does not seem to be able to communicate in clear engineering dialouge and I for one cannot understand his form of writing. It is for these reasons that I usually state my case and then be done with it as He will go on incessantly to get the last reply in. I think that in his own mind he views this as a victory, and if that is the case, it's fine with me, as learning knowledge and then seeing that proven by actual experience is proof enough that it is correct. My main point here is that all of us could debate with him for a month and in the end he will still have the last word.
- Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
You sound confused between the ground wire, and earth ground.
Keep trying, Im sure you read into the lines as well, where nothing exists.
INTRODUCTION: If the neutral wire and the equipment grounding wire of a circuit are
interconnected at some point other than at the service panel, load current will also flow on the
equipment grounding wire. This is not supposed to happen and can be a source of stray
voltage. This Tech Note describes a method of identifying when there is an interconnection
between the neutral wire and the equipment grounding wire of a circuit and how to identify the
circuit with the interconnection. The primary tool required is a continuity tester as shown in
Figure 1 and a voltmeter. The main circuit breaker and all branch circuit breakers are turned
off. Since there is stall power to the supply conductors of the panel, this procedure should only
be conducted by a qualified individual.
How Harmonics overload the neutral wiring in buildings and create a potential fire hazard,.....
So how do you slow down harmonics?
Tell us how many dedicated grounds and how many earth to ground connections exist in a high rise?
Keep trying, Im sure you read into the lines as well, where nothing exists.
INTRODUCTION: If the neutral wire and the equipment grounding wire of a circuit are
interconnected at some point other than at the service panel, load current will also flow on the
equipment grounding wire. This is not supposed to happen and can be a source of stray
voltage. This Tech Note describes a method of identifying when there is an interconnection
between the neutral wire and the equipment grounding wire of a circuit and how to identify the
circuit with the interconnection. The primary tool required is a continuity tester as shown in
Figure 1 and a voltmeter. The main circuit breaker and all branch circuit breakers are turned
off. Since there is stall power to the supply conductors of the panel, this procedure should only
be conducted by a qualified individual.
How Harmonics overload the neutral wiring in buildings and create a potential fire hazard,.....
So how do you slow down harmonics?
Tell us how many dedicated grounds and how many earth to ground connections exist in a high rise?
The 2007 NEC states in section 250.24(A)(5):
" Load -Side Grounding Connections.
A grounding connection shall not be made to any grounded conductor on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as
otherwise permitted in this article."
This clearly prohibits connections between neutral (grounded conductor) and ground. A single connection from neutral to ground is required in the vicinity of the service disconnecting means, as described by Robert Reed, b1miller, and dyarker. There are several sections devoted to the requirements for this single jumper between the power wiring and the grounding system.
There are no exceptions or different treatment for high rise buildings. They have to follow the same rules.
As for Chris's qualifications as an Electrical Engineer, there is no doubt that he is not qualified. This is a matter of record.
" Load -Side Grounding Connections.
A grounding connection shall not be made to any grounded conductor on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as
otherwise permitted in this article."
This clearly prohibits connections between neutral (grounded conductor) and ground. A single connection from neutral to ground is required in the vicinity of the service disconnecting means, as described by Robert Reed, b1miller, and dyarker. There are several sections devoted to the requirements for this single jumper between the power wiring and the grounding system.
There are no exceptions or different treatment for high rise buildings. They have to follow the same rules.
As for Chris's qualifications as an Electrical Engineer, there is no doubt that he is not qualified. This is a matter of record.
- Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
The NEC states, ....is all we will here hear from rshayes because amateurs are on the rise and trying to make their place in the world instead of their education and on the job training.
Now find what’s the difference between a Dedicated Earth Ground and a ground wire or connector, have some help you if need be.
And after that state the law on how many dedicated earths are permitted, also in a neutral lead or a ground wire, then state the facts on how they reduce harmonics, why the load decreases in the wire.
Now find what’s the difference between a Dedicated Earth Ground and a ground wire or connector, have some help you if need be.
And after that state the law on how many dedicated earths are permitted, also in a neutral lead or a ground wire, then state the facts on how they reduce harmonics, why the load decreases in the wire.
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The Darwin awards are based on the process of evolution from the common ape.b1miller wrote:Well, I can see this thread rapidly sliding down hill. I will gracefully bow out of this subject at this time. I sincerely do hope that I see our resident expert referenced at the next annual Darwin Awards.
<>
- Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Your above trash has not one iota to do with what I printed. DUHH
Have some on interpret it for you this time.
Do try again.
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=120rt4.png
Exactly as written by me....http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-W ... onding.htm
At the main service panel....neutral and ground are one and the same (they are bonded there)....but that is the ONLY time they are. Once you leave the main panel...they become seperate and each now serves a completely different purpose. As you noted....the neutral serves as a return conductor...and is needed for the 120 volt control equipment on the XXXX.
The ground now serves as a seperate safety path...to pick up any voltage that may make it to the metal frame (such as in the event of an internal fault or short in the device)...helping to protect the user from a potential shock touching the frame.
Are you proud that you call your selves the ammature club, all that speaking from no experience and all.
Amatuer Wanna bees.
Gee, lets all forget,... they make claim and gee, all that experience and all?
Hi rises don’t make a difference, .....really, experience speaking or just wishful thinking? Dont answer.
How many transformers does a high rise use, on what levels, how many connections to earth ground, how many neutral ties are there, where, and all the rest.
Don’t worry, your guesses aren’t really needed, just laughed at.
These uninformed answers here are right up there with “you cant dump an Amp or Tenâ€
Have some on interpret it for you this time.
Do try again.
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=120rt4.png
Exactly as written by me....http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-W ... onding.htm
At the main service panel....neutral and ground are one and the same (they are bonded there)....but that is the ONLY time they are. Once you leave the main panel...they become seperate and each now serves a completely different purpose. As you noted....the neutral serves as a return conductor...and is needed for the 120 volt control equipment on the XXXX.
The ground now serves as a seperate safety path...to pick up any voltage that may make it to the metal frame (such as in the event of an internal fault or short in the device)...helping to protect the user from a potential shock touching the frame.
Are you proud that you call your selves the ammature club, all that speaking from no experience and all.
Amatuer Wanna bees.
Gee, lets all forget,... they make claim and gee, all that experience and all?
Hi rises don’t make a difference, .....really, experience speaking or just wishful thinking? Dont answer.
How many transformers does a high rise use, on what levels, how many connections to earth ground, how many neutral ties are there, where, and all the rest.
Don’t worry, your guesses aren’t really needed, just laughed at.
These uninformed answers here are right up there with “you cant dump an Amp or Tenâ€
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It appears that Chris is ignorant of the status of the National Electric Code (NEC).
It is revised and published by a committee of the National Fire Protective Association (NFPA). The NFPA has no legal status by itself. Usually new versions of the NEC are adopted by reference by most of the local governments in the United States. When so adopted, it becomes part of the laws governing structures and electrical equipment in those jurisdictions.
If the work done on a building is not done according to the NEC, the building inspector will not approve the construction and the building cannot be occupied.
positronicle- I think Chris's bunch is still out in the garden hiding from Bugs Bunny.
It is revised and published by a committee of the National Fire Protective Association (NFPA). The NFPA has no legal status by itself. Usually new versions of the NEC are adopted by reference by most of the local governments in the United States. When so adopted, it becomes part of the laws governing structures and electrical equipment in those jurisdictions.
If the work done on a building is not done according to the NEC, the building inspector will not approve the construction and the building cannot be occupied.
positronicle- I think Chris's bunch is still out in the garden hiding from Bugs Bunny.
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- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:01 am
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Chris Smith
"The blind following the Blind...."
Who is the speaker of that house?
shayes
Philba
b1miller
Robert Reed
Positronicle
dyrker
Thank you very much for including me in this group as this is quite an honor to be listed with some of the BEST OF THE BEST!
B1Miller
Oh yes, you were right on target.
"The blind following the Blind...."
Who is the speaker of that house?
shayes
Philba
b1miller
Robert Reed
Positronicle
dyrker
Thank you very much for including me in this group as this is quite an honor to be listed with some of the BEST OF THE BEST!
B1Miller
Oh yes, you were right on target.
- Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
One of the things here you can count on from shayes, dyrker, Philba, Robert Reed, and Positronicle is all that personal on the job electrical talk.
None of that book jockey talk. And they are soo good, they answer any question posed, and all by them self because of that personal knowledge.
Im sure it amounts to dozens of seconds worth of experience on high rises, mobile home parks, and houses between them.
Such knowledge only comes from all the experience.
Its fair to let the other end do your talking once in a while, especially if your looking for a flock.
Stick to electronics guys, out side that field your head is wet, and your feet just keep getting muddier.
Ask your cheer leader, posty likes to pretend and he has all the answers you will ever need.
You guys cant even read English with out adding in your two cents, so stay away from the power mains, their not for you.
Gather all the crowd that will flock with you, its safer that way.
No one expects you to think for your self, or even read a manual and still get it right.
If you cant even read my words and get that half right, please, stay the hell away from the mains. Stick to low voltages, its much safer.
None of that book jockey talk. And they are soo good, they answer any question posed, and all by them self because of that personal knowledge.
Im sure it amounts to dozens of seconds worth of experience on high rises, mobile home parks, and houses between them.
Such knowledge only comes from all the experience.
Its fair to let the other end do your talking once in a while, especially if your looking for a flock.
Stick to electronics guys, out side that field your head is wet, and your feet just keep getting muddier.
Ask your cheer leader, posty likes to pretend and he has all the answers you will ever need.
You guys cant even read English with out adding in your two cents, so stay away from the power mains, their not for you.
Gather all the crowd that will flock with you, its safer that way.
No one expects you to think for your self, or even read a manual and still get it right.
If you cant even read my words and get that half right, please, stay the hell away from the mains. Stick to low voltages, its much safer.
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