Strange AC Power Issue

[Chris Smith]

Let me see, let me go back thirty years in education to answer a silly Posty joke.

Why would I want to educate you still, even after the combustion engine debacle, after the dedicated ground wires disaster, afer all the subjects that you have Zero knowledge of and even less experience with?

Tell me, your like a kindergarten child asking Steven Hawkings a simple question.

State your purpose, is it for your education or do you think you can trick me?

You have absolutely nothing to teach me and you have absolutly no desire to learn, so stand down wind with your mouth open and relieve your self.

IF you cant read what I have posted, stop wasting our time.

The subject was long over for you way before you decided to add in your peso worth of nothing.

You have already proven your self to be not worthy of being taught.

Your understanding of the world is sub high school level.

In my days the teacher sent “themâ€

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--

[Chris Smith]

What part did you miss, your incapable of understanding any of the basics.

Stop wasting anyones time, you get no where with your tripe, you expose your IQ to every one, and you convince us at best that your just a fish slalesman.

No one not even here will take you serious, they will just keep quite so it appears they have formed some kind of Clique adding in your name.

Like that has anything to do with anything in the scientific world?

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--

[Chris Smith]

You sound desperate, run out of fish or just no sales tonight?

[MrAl]

Hello MrAl
Your print does show the correct scenario in a typical household circuit. But I don't think it's quite accurrate.There should also be a resistance in the black(hot) wire as well as the one shown in the White(neutal wire). Voltage drop at the outlet under load will occur in both of these wires. The resistance of a # 12 gauge 100 foot loop would be on the order of 0.15 ohm. Even with say a 10 amp load, you would still have almost 119 volts available at the outlet. Of course higher loads and longer runs will reduce this voltage somewhat. My home is wired strictly to NEC standards and is all electric with baseboard heating. The longest heater run is 150 feet loop. The maximum load that the code allows in our area for heating cicuits is 3800 watts when supplied with a 20 amp circuit.The worst case I have ever measured was a 2 or 3 volt loss at the heater terminals and have never seen the neutral rise more than 2 volts above the ground lead. Naturally this was due to the voltage drop of the current carrying neutral as opposed to no voltage drop on the non-current carrying safety ground lead. I think your 100 volt reading at the outlet is quite a bit high and would possibly indicate a severe heating along the line at a poor connection point.
The ongoing argument here is never add grounds to the neutral as Chris has been doing repeatedly. Adding extra grounds to the ground lead would be acceptable if desired, but NEVER to the neutral. The neutral should only have one earth ground connection and that is at the point of service entry.

Hi Robert,

That diagram was made with the idea that maybe the resistance
was in the neutral wire, but that may not be the case. BTW thanks
for the intelligent reply, something not too often seen here
(just kidding folks).

I guess i should make another drawing showing the resistance in
the ground wire, because from the OP's measurements it looks like
the resistance is really in the ground wire?
I dont think it's in the hot wire however, and i didnt want to cover
every single scenario, only the one that pertains to his problem.

[Chris Smith]

Its much easier to follow my crude drawing, keeping in mind the extra ground connections drawn in are actual and separate grounds.

You wont see any connection with the ground wires, the neutral wire, or its added ground connections to earth. They each have their own earth connection. [other than at the box]

Some here like to mix them up for the long ground wire, which can cause all sorts of problems.

When you draw yours, check the load on the neutral return, then alleviate some of its load by sending it to a seperate earth ground half way down.

Works just fine.

And if you have the ability to see the harmonics in the cad program, watch!

[MrAl]

Hi again,

I have noticed that in this thread again it looks like there is a bit
of an argument between two or more members. What i will
purpose is that the entire discussion be moderated entirely.
I think this will help to narrow down exactly where the parties
disagree and why they disagree.

I have noticed that a large body of the misunderstandings come up
from people responding from being annoyed by others posts, and
i also noticed that several times questions asked by both sides
(as to the others ability to answer accurately or simply just informatively)
goes unanswered, and so the myth of either side lacking something
in particular is allowed to go unchecked.

What i would like to try rather than locking a thread or other, is
to take each reply and restate it if necessary, so that the other
party will have to answer the question posed (as long as it's on topic
of course) at least to some intelligent degree, and not continue
mocking one another as well.


Example of a thread the way it might go now:

poster1: Photons start out deep in the Suns core.
poster2: No you dummy, they start out at the surface.
poster1: No you're the dummy, they definitely start out in the core.
poster2: Go back to school.
poster1: poster2, where did you hear that they start out on surface?
poster2: you dont know anything so stop posting here.
poster2: you really are dumb.

Example of how this would be changed:

moderator: poster1 says Photons start out deep in the Suns core.
moderator: poster2 disagrees strongly, saying really on the surface.
moderator: poster1 says they definitely start out in the core.
moderator: poster2 did not add intelligently to the discussion.
moderator: poster1 asks, where did poster2 get that idea?
moderator: poster2 did not yet answer.
moderator: poster2 still did not answer.

If you are in favor of trying this, just say "YES", but if not
just say "NO".

This will be the only thread this will be tried in if most are in favor.

Another idea is to start another parallel thread with the moderated
replies and leave this one alone or to be moderated 'normally' by
deleting strongly offending posts.

Your vote?

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--

[Chris Smith]

Im easy, I post, some learn, some dont.

Dosent matter.

Personally other than some great humor here, I sleep just fine any way.

Some do make me chuckle louder than others, but then Im just wicked.

They can chose a seperate path for learning controversial subjects and you can moderate their speed for being introduced to into these subjects so lock ups dont occur so easily, .....no problems with me.

Actually It might remove some of the chatter than isnt even relevent to the subject at hand.

Are you still here posty?

Assuming ...remember what it gets you?

I still have no education for you today.

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--

[rshayes]

Hello Al,

The measurements that francesco posted at the top of page 2 seem to indicate the original problem.

To quote francesco:

"hot+cold water pipe= 119V
neutral+cold water pipe= 0V
ground+cold water pipe= 27V

I tested neutral+metal at the panel and came up with 27V."

The interesting point is that the neutral is at the same voltage as the cold water pipe. This indicates a reasonably direct connection between them. The ground wire shows a substantial difference between it and the neutral. The metal enclosure appears to be at the same potential as the ground wire, indicating that the enclosure is probably connected to the ground wire.

One explanation for this is that all of the ground wires are brought to a ground bus. The enclosure also appears to be connected to this bus. The neutral leads of the various branch circuits probably go to a sepaarate neutral bus. The ground lead from the building ground system may have been connected directly to the neutral bus. This would leave the ground wires and ground bus floating, with their potential determined by leakage currents in the equipment on the various branch circuits.

The jumper between the neutral wires and the ground wires appears to be missing. When francesco added a jumper between these points, the voltage readings apparently became normal.

[jwax]

Mr Al- How about we vote on whether a thread should be closed due to off-topic and childish personal babblings, especially from repeat offenders?
I think all of us are tired of sifting through posts to separate the BS from the tech.

[MrAl]

Hi again,

rshayes:
So you are saying the ground wire might be open?

jwax:
Well if we close this thread then the issue might not be resolved,
or do you mean start another thread like it?

positronicle:
I'll try to start this process here.....................


START
----------

positronicle, you did not answer Chris' question about
how to correct harmonics in the neutral wire.

Chris, i have a question for you: How did you find out that
the way to correct harmonics in the neutral wire is to connect
a second (or third) ground to the neutral wire at or near the outlet?

[positronicle]

--Edited by Positronicle--