Chris,
My original point remains that by doing some of things you mention, you will be violating the NEC in several areas. You cannot just modify electrical wiring, whether residential or commercial to suit your notion of what you believe will work better. Any electrical inspector would immediately red tag any installation or wiring during his inspection that was wired per your design. In today's litiguous society, you are asking to be held personally liable for any damage or injury that might result if someone were to follow your suggestions instead of finding and fixing the problem.
I have personally conducted and witnessed earth ground tests where even dual ground rods supplemented by water piping did not provide a low enough resistance to clear a fault. With todays use of PVC piping to supply water to a house, connecting a grounding connector to a metal water line may even be useless.
If you suspect that you have a faulty neutral connection, the answer is not to modify the connections at the outlet. The answer is to fix the problem before it leads to more serious or catastrophic problems.
Strange AC Power Issue
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Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
B-1
Actually that’s a grey area.
Here we not talking industrial or residential for some one else.
The reason its grey is its actually better, and they have to provide an engineer, and finally he will also conclude its better.
Having been there with many inspectors,... doing things better will baffle the lesser engineers, but in the end they have to conclude the better of the two.
When this happens, they dont like it but they usually conceed.
Always force the inspector, keep them on their toes.
If this was commercial, yes, Id worry.
As a residential, no.
The laws are actually on the owners side, and many inspectors have been sent packing because they don’t have a clue. I have been there.
CODES and LAWS apply mostly to "consumer itemsâ€
Actually that’s a grey area.
Here we not talking industrial or residential for some one else.
The reason its grey is its actually better, and they have to provide an engineer, and finally he will also conclude its better.
Having been there with many inspectors,... doing things better will baffle the lesser engineers, but in the end they have to conclude the better of the two.
When this happens, they dont like it but they usually conceed.
Always force the inspector, keep them on their toes.
If this was commercial, yes, Id worry.
As a residential, no.
The laws are actually on the owners side, and many inspectors have been sent packing because they don’t have a clue. I have been there.
CODES and LAWS apply mostly to "consumer itemsâ€
Well for the lack of any other words... you won't beleive this!
After 2 days maintenance has yet to show up. So I was tired of waiting and after playing around I figured I open the panel. But before doing that earlier in the day I checked my neighbor's outlet and the power there had NO problems.
Now it gets interesting. After opening the panel I started to probe aroung with the screw driver and see is there is anything funny. At one point I noticed when moving the eletric stove's ground wire the "building wiring fault" light on the power equipment would go out.
After further investigation I found it was because when I moved that ground wire it was touching the panel's chassis and all the 120V ground wires were all connected to a terminal bolted on the chassis. However, the chassis was not grounded, and it looked like there was a line that went from that terminal to the groundbar but was removed. So in other words all the wiring had ground wires and all were connected to a terminal but not connected to ground itself.
So I rigged together some wires to make a piece of wire about 4 gauge thick and a 2 gauge copper battery terminal and attached everything to the ground bar. Now it all works! I forgot to take a picture and painted the screws like it was before and really don't feel like doing it all over again.
The maintenance guys in this place are idiots. I could tell you many stories.
After 2 days maintenance has yet to show up. So I was tired of waiting and after playing around I figured I open the panel. But before doing that earlier in the day I checked my neighbor's outlet and the power there had NO problems.
Now it gets interesting. After opening the panel I started to probe aroung with the screw driver and see is there is anything funny. At one point I noticed when moving the eletric stove's ground wire the "building wiring fault" light on the power equipment would go out.
After further investigation I found it was because when I moved that ground wire it was touching the panel's chassis and all the 120V ground wires were all connected to a terminal bolted on the chassis. However, the chassis was not grounded, and it looked like there was a line that went from that terminal to the groundbar but was removed. So in other words all the wiring had ground wires and all were connected to a terminal but not connected to ground itself.
So I rigged together some wires to make a piece of wire about 4 gauge thick and a 2 gauge copper battery terminal and attached everything to the ground bar. Now it all works! I forgot to take a picture and painted the screws like it was before and really don't feel like doing it all over again.
The maintenance guys in this place are idiots. I could tell you many stories.
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dyarker
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WARNING: What Chris says about grounding is untrue, not safe and illegal. All his posts on this subject should removed in case some novice reads it, and does not read on to the numerous other posts explaining the errors in his statements. In his own words he says 50% of his customers have voltage on their computer frames. Such a high percentage in a cluster implies that the common cause is Chris' misguided repairs.
Neutral should be connected to earth ground at one point only. The purpose of this connection is for voltage reference, not for current return. By referencing to ground it prevents the two wires necessary for a circuit from being at a much higher (dangerous) voltage. For example, one wire at 600 Volts the other at 720 Volts. The difference is still 120 Volts, things still work, but it is an extremely dangerous situation. An other reason for a ground reference is to disipate DC build up. In addition to lightning strikes and near misses, wind blowing across cables on poles could create a large static charge. For example, both wires could be at 7000 VDC but with 120VAC between them. Again, most things work but are dangerous to be around.
Now why not to ground neutral a multiple points. The Earth is not zero Ohms, and ground connections (driven rods, buried steel pipe, etc) typically are 10 to 100 Ohms. Putting return current through ground causes a voltage difference between grounds. This causes electrical appliances/equipment enclosures and non-electric conductors like heating ducts and water pipes to at different potentials even though they are all "grounded". Also, by returning current by a path other than the neutral wire paired with the hot, the living area of the residence is put "inside" the EM field of the circuit. Not as strong a field as high voltage transmission lines, but nobody lives between the wires of high voltage lines.
The rules in the NEC have been developed over about a hundred years. Some are the result of investigation after someone died (similar to airline industry). Now Chris says he knows better by nonsense logic. That IS nonsense! Sounds like Reckless Endangerment to me.
Neutral should be connected to earth ground at one point only. The purpose of this connection is for voltage reference, not for current return. By referencing to ground it prevents the two wires necessary for a circuit from being at a much higher (dangerous) voltage. For example, one wire at 600 Volts the other at 720 Volts. The difference is still 120 Volts, things still work, but it is an extremely dangerous situation. An other reason for a ground reference is to disipate DC build up. In addition to lightning strikes and near misses, wind blowing across cables on poles could create a large static charge. For example, both wires could be at 7000 VDC but with 120VAC between them. Again, most things work but are dangerous to be around.
Now why not to ground neutral a multiple points. The Earth is not zero Ohms, and ground connections (driven rods, buried steel pipe, etc) typically are 10 to 100 Ohms. Putting return current through ground causes a voltage difference between grounds. This causes electrical appliances/equipment enclosures and non-electric conductors like heating ducts and water pipes to at different potentials even though they are all "grounded". Also, by returning current by a path other than the neutral wire paired with the hot, the living area of the residence is put "inside" the EM field of the circuit. Not as strong a field as high voltage transmission lines, but nobody lives between the wires of high voltage lines.
The rules in the NEC have been developed over about a hundred years. Some are the result of investigation after someone died (similar to airline industry). Now Chris says he knows better by nonsense logic. That IS nonsense! Sounds like Reckless Endangerment to me.
Dale Y
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Chris Smith
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- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Dark, your not even close.
Adding in more safety is perfectly safe, perfectly legal on your own property.
In fact my first prediction here for this article was 100% correct, no grounds.
Your lack of understanding of the 120 volt system is obvious, stick to electronics.
If you don’t like my drawings, get out the wire cutters and modify your house because it already is exactly Like I posted.
Perhaps you have Ethernet grounds and neutrals, hooked up to the sky?
Many wiring systems even by law, use multiple grounds.
The concept that you get a difference because the grounds are different is not part of the wiring, only like I said before, a difference for a GFI sense, something most places don’t have any way.
A two wire system using a GFI will give you far more false calls and bad trips than any well grounded system.
Again as I said only the GFI in some circumstances will be altered, and then only its sensitivity, and all better still that any two wire system using a GFI in the first place.
Such a high percentage in a cluster implies that the common cause is Chris' misguided repairs.
Name one.
Adding in more safety is perfectly safe, perfectly legal on your own property.
In fact my first prediction here for this article was 100% correct, no grounds.
Your lack of understanding of the 120 volt system is obvious, stick to electronics.
If you don’t like my drawings, get out the wire cutters and modify your house because it already is exactly Like I posted.
Perhaps you have Ethernet grounds and neutrals, hooked up to the sky?
Many wiring systems even by law, use multiple grounds.
The concept that you get a difference because the grounds are different is not part of the wiring, only like I said before, a difference for a GFI sense, something most places don’t have any way.
A two wire system using a GFI will give you far more false calls and bad trips than any well grounded system.
Again as I said only the GFI in some circumstances will be altered, and then only its sensitivity, and all better still that any two wire system using a GFI in the first place.
Such a high percentage in a cluster implies that the common cause is Chris' misguided repairs.
Name one.
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positronicle
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positronicle
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Chris Smith
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francesco
They have a little box just below the writing box for Pics, if that doesn’t work try http://www.imageshack.us/ and use the choice at the bottom for “friendsâ€
They have a little box just below the writing box for Pics, if that doesn’t work try http://www.imageshack.us/ and use the choice at the bottom for “friendsâ€
First, let me state one fact:
Chris Smith is not an Electrical Engineer.
Period.
His statements that "better" engineers would find his wiring schemes an improvement on the electrical code and that only "lesser" engineers would disagree with him are false.
The NEC (National Electrical Code) is not a gray area. It is included by reference in most of the building codes in the country.
The section on grounding in the NEC is Article 250. It covers a total of 27 pages. Robert Reed, b1miller, and dyarker have accurately described the gist of it as it applies to this situation.
Failure to conform to the building code can result in loss of insurance and in legal liability.
Chris Smith is not an Electrical Engineer.
Period.
His statements that "better" engineers would find his wiring schemes an improvement on the electrical code and that only "lesser" engineers would disagree with him are false.
The NEC (National Electrical Code) is not a gray area. It is included by reference in most of the building codes in the country.
The section on grounding in the NEC is Article 250. It covers a total of 27 pages. Robert Reed, b1miller, and dyarker have accurately described the gist of it as it applies to this situation.
Failure to conform to the building code can result in loss of insurance and in legal liability.
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Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
<>
Tell us of all the mistakes I have written ,back them up with physics or electronics books, and then give us your personal experience on the subject, not the manufacture suggestion like soo many here.
Also show us how a high and a low wire situations endangers anything compared to a high and a higher wire?
Should be interesting,. but keep it less than a thousand words, please.
<>
I cant wait to hear how many earth grounds are legal, or even better, the maximum amount of earth to neutral connections there are allowed by law, and for how big a job or the length of wires used.
Having been to many work sites, working on several mains, counting all the neutrals to earth connection, watching all the extra grounds applied, and generally having seen what you say as pure fantasy, No, your not realistic or even experienced in anything other than trying to read the book.
Every commercial high-rise, office, or trailer park has a minimal of two neutral to ground connections. One at the main transformer, the other at each meter connection. Gee, why, when all you need is one.
High rise buildings use multiple neutrals with earth to ground connections simple because no single connection will do.
Every time the voltage is reduced, a extra ground to neutral is applied,...simply because of potential.
The last thing in the world you need is the guy with 480 feeding back down the line into your 240 neutral.
Ground it and ground it way before there is any potential difference.
I have seen it happen.
Tell us of all the mistakes I have written ,back them up with physics or electronics books, and then give us your personal experience on the subject, not the manufacture suggestion like soo many here.
Also show us how a high and a low wire situations endangers anything compared to a high and a higher wire?
Should be interesting,. but keep it less than a thousand words, please.
<>
I cant wait to hear how many earth grounds are legal, or even better, the maximum amount of earth to neutral connections there are allowed by law, and for how big a job or the length of wires used.
Having been to many work sites, working on several mains, counting all the neutrals to earth connection, watching all the extra grounds applied, and generally having seen what you say as pure fantasy, No, your not realistic or even experienced in anything other than trying to read the book.
Every commercial high-rise, office, or trailer park has a minimal of two neutral to ground connections. One at the main transformer, the other at each meter connection. Gee, why, when all you need is one.
High rise buildings use multiple neutrals with earth to ground connections simple because no single connection will do.
Every time the voltage is reduced, a extra ground to neutral is applied,...simply because of potential.
The last thing in the world you need is the guy with 480 feeding back down the line into your 240 neutral.
Ground it and ground it way before there is any potential difference.
I have seen it happen.
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positronicle
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