HI-DEF? Retrofit B&W TV! JPEG obsolete? (LOL!) DIY!

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VIRAND
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HI-DEF? Retrofit B&W TV! JPEG obsolete? (LOL!) DIY!

Post by VIRAND » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:52 pm

In the latest Nuts and Volts there was a statement that JPEG may become obsolete,

and while that may be true, if all things must pass, but I don't see something called
HD-photo from Microsoft replacing it. What would Mac and other computers use?
Jpeg, because the web is full of Jpeg, and unless one open source line of Perl can
convert it to HD-photo, there will still be Jpegs.

I perceive HD as something defined while under the influence of dope, and nothing more.
HD radio and TV are just regular radios and computer monitors with signal
scrambling added at a premium. I'll now show you how you can retrofit an old
BLACK AND WHITE high quality security monitor to PROJECT
a large BEYOND 1080i PLUS COLOR color image onto a movie screen!
The B&W TV must be turned up full brightness, and it's tuner may be modded
to tune HDTV signal except perhaps in the USA. New TV's must filter out the
signal or be able to comply with broadcast flags. Actually old B&W tuners are
often relatively very good.

It is untimely that a method of converting B&W to color widescreen comes
now, or is it? Imagine all the pollution made by the mountain of old TV's if
we don't mod them into new ones. It's simple, and published to public domain.
Equal rights reserved.

Does any of your digital stuff sound better than Quad Hi-Fi? How about your cell phone?
Notice that analog to digital conversion is Sampling, which is lossy. And compression
is lossy. So with all that loss, what's the gain?
It's a conspiracy called "LESS IS MORE, SO BUY IT, EVEN THOUGH IT'S STILL FREE!"
If this technique is used with a high quality analog security monitor,
it may be possible to look at the image "with a microscope" in a the forensics lab.
Digital images might never beat film, cinematography, celluloid,
or whatever you call it. Anyway, here's the simple analog B&W to HD conversion:
It at least gains Color!

PSEUDO-HIGH-DEFF FROM B&W TV:
Image

I hope the diagram comes out bigger than in the preview.
How it works is the screen is coated with either ORANGE/CYAN or RGB,
and beam splitters combine the color coated images,
and a projection lens puts that on the wall.
Some simple mods to the sync and some color preprocessing (more or less)
are necessary, as well as maybe some yoke adjustment.
The B&W TV will work better for HD than a modified color TV for several reasons.
This has been tested and it works. Even with "Rabbit Ears"!

Nuts & Volts, why not Tell us how HDTV works, not just Sell us???

---

Generation X had ipods with free download buttons. (Walkmans and Boomboxes)
Generation X had unlimited minutes on their phones. They were called "walkie-talkies".
Generation X could buy a song for 99 cents on a big black groovy CD, or play it
for 25c on a public music player called a Juke Box
Generation X could "text" for free using morse code. Easy...There was only one key.
Generation X could make their own videogames if they had the computer game consoles.

Generation Y, do you feel ripped off?

VIRAND
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Post by VIRAND » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:00 pm

Maybe this link will come out bigger.

http://thumb1.webshots.net/t/16/17/2/43 ... gUb_th.jpg

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dacflyer
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Post by dacflyer » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:02 pm

nope,,it came out smaller...lol

VIRAND
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Post by VIRAND » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Guess not... how about this? I think so.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/21 ... 6801TFLgUb

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haklesup
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Post by haklesup » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:22 pm

Even if the graphic were large, it would never cover all the hand waving it takes for the explanation.

Your talking about (post) baby boomers. Gereration X has nothing of note to identify with by definition. No war, flat economy, pre internet, mechanical cars, little new technology of note. Even disco was dead by the time we could drink. Presently I think they are calling it the "Internet Generation"

"Where's the beef" I guess Gen X has that.

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dacflyer
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Post by dacflyer » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:21 pm

wheres the beef ?? i rember that Wendy's commercial with the old lady.
Cracked me up back then.. :P

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jwax
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Post by jwax » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:02 am

I can't tell what you're suggesting with "Pseudo Color Hi Def" from a B&W TV. Or are you just ragging on digital TV, phones, audio?
Do I want to convert my old B&W TV to color hidef spending hours, dollars and hope, or just buy a color hidef tv off the shelf?
Has anyone heard of or done this "conversion"?

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dr_when
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sheesh

Post by dr_when » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:00 am

VIRAND sez:
I hope the diagram comes out bigger than in the preview.
How it works is the screen is coated with either ORANGE/CYAN or RGB,
and beam splitters combine the color coated images,
and a projection lens puts that on the wall.
Some simple mods to the sync and some color preprocessing (more or less)
are necessary, as well as maybe some yoke adjustment.
The B&W TV will work better for HD than a modified color TV for several reasons.
This has been tested and it works. Even with "Rabbit Ears"!
Please expound a little VIRAND!!! Coat the screen with what orange/cyan/rgb??? Kool-aid, house paint, ????? Oh, yeah, I am fresh out of beam splitters. Should I mirror my own? Yeah, let me tweak that yoke adjustment too.
I really am amazed at the experts that occasionally post an authoritative message composed of nonsensical drivel while whining about what is going on around them. Anybody can come up with crappy ideas that are not worth the time fooling with. :mad:
"Who is John Galt?"

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GoingFastTurningLeft
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Post by GoingFastTurningLeft » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:57 am

Whatever VIRAND is smokin must be good. This is the biggest bunch of rambling crap I've ever seen on here. It's not even theoretical. It says "you can do this and you'll get this, save the environment, they're lying to you" but doesn't say how to do anything. It's not even logical...

And who has a "high quality" B&W security monitor lying around? High quality and low cost aren't usually associated with each other...

it also says "may not work in the USA" yet you're listed as being in the USA.

HD is not a load of crap. Its a standard. It's been out since the mid 90's. I found a technical book in my college's library about HDTV and how it works... and it was written in 1996. Stations also broadcast HD OVER THE AIR, as in with radio waves. If you live in a city, you can pick up broadcast HD with the right kind of antenna. I know, my dad tried to do that, but we live too far from Philadelphia to get any reception. There's no scrambling going on there. Maybe HBO scrambles theirs... but they are also a PAY station... you are paying for a service.

A TV projector is one of my oldest on-going projects.

CRT monitors have nowhere close to the amount of light output to make a decent projector. This is a known fact.

It's the same thing as those ebay kits for $10 that sell you a fresnel lens (page magnifier, usually) and you put it in front of your TV screen.

You have to darken the room 100% to get an even viewable picture on one of those, and its still bad quality.

To make a decent projector, you use an overhead projector and a TFT panel. Tons of info on the internet for this. I learned using a 42 LCD HDTV with my computer that only 1024 lines are visible! So you can use a TFT with a height of 1024 and you will get HD. For a TFT panel, you can use office presentation panels available on ebay, probably $150 for a really good one, or you can take apart a computer monitor. Building one of these would probably be under $300, and it would use $6 bulbs, as opposed to $1200 and use $200 bulbs.

My projector is crappy but TV is watchable at huge resolutions (i've used it up to 8' wide!), even in less than total darkness. I have a 6" 320x240 resolution NTSC TFT I got off ebay for about $40. They'd work really good as a monitor in the back of a headrest in a car. I have this disassembled with all the back lighting stuff removed, and I use it with a 600W overhead projector and a magnifying glass (I broke the overhead's lenses). I need to upgrade to a higher resolution TFT panel and get a triplet lens.

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GoingFastTurningLeft
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Post by GoingFastTurningLeft » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:29 am

DIY Projector Wiki:
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=Video

DIY HDTV Antenna:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613

A whole forum on DIY Projectors:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdis ... forumid=20

A DIY HDTV Projector project:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/lofivers ... t5230.html

This stickies at the top of that forum are more than all the information you need to know about building projectors.

At least I hope I was able to bring some worthwhile information to this thread! I think it's reminded me I need to work on my projector some more. I know what I'll be doing with part of my tax refund! :lol:

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haklesup
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Post by haklesup » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:27 am

Where's the beef? Lets not forget Walter Mondale :? who used that line also. Now he's a real generation X Icon.

Me thinks Virnad is just a little late for April Fools day, unless you're one to celebrate the whole month. :evil:

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MrAl
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Post by MrAl » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:57 am

Hi there,

I see how something like this 'could' work, but just how 'well' it works
is another story. Because of the brigtness issue you probably have
to watch tv in the dark in order to see the screen.

Not only that, the tv needs serious modification. The color signal
has to be used to split the screen into at least two sections, where
(how it looks in that diagram) the top outputs the intensity info for
one color while the bottom outputs the intensity for another color.
Two lenses (not one) would then have to be used to focus both colors
on the same screen in the same place.
Since dividing the top and bottom of a normal tv in two would
create sections that are longer than then are high, the unusual
shape of the HD TV would be created automatically. We'd have to
do some simple calculations to see if it came out right, but i bet
it would be easy to adjust if it wasnt (width).
Next is getting the color coatings right. The coatings will also reduce
light output, so again we're in the dark watching it.

Overall this could work, but unless the kit is super cheap and
you can find nice size lenses for cheap it's still going to cost
bucks, and the light output is going to be something to deal with.

I would not build one, although some people might want to
fool around with it. Im also wondering if they sell a kit of *all*
parts (including lenses, paint, circuit, instructions). I'd like
to see a kit that works on all bw tv sets.
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.

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haklesup
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Post by haklesup » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:09 pm

I for one cannot see how this could be made to work at all.

The TV would require so much serious modification that all that may be left of the original would be the power cord.

At the heart of the matter the B&W signals are fundimentally different than Digital signals. It simply does not contain the same information.

At the dawn of Color TV there were some schemes that used a color wheel synchronized to an interlaced R, G, B frame of the screen. Not too different than DLP really. To reenact such a scheme, you would need to seriously digitally process the incoming video stream and reoutput it to the display device. not simple or cheap in any respect. Such a signal would have been different than NTSC (and likely too high a bandwith at that time to technically produce)

I suppose you might use three B&W screens each fed the R, G and B portions of the color (color seperators were available, not sure about now) signal to each TV, then over drive the PIX tube by cranking up its HV and brightness (some more mods) Finally using optics, recombine each image on the same screen through color filters. Oh, I just described a 3 beam projector TV, been done.

Considering a security CRT, they often did have 4 inputs to display multiple cameras on screen. A varient of the above 3 beam schenario is at least concieveable. The optics to recombine the image would not be cheap at least as a proto. SOme of these CRTs may have higher than 480i resolution so that 4X 480i images could be displayed while still maintaining clarity (not sure about that)

I never tried inputting the component video (Pb, Pr, Y) outputs to the composite input (Yellow RCA jack) one at a time, using a HD tuner, you might get around the color seperation steps but I think you just get garbage.

No mattrer what, whithout doubling the vert scan frequency of the CRT, you will never get more than 480i display. Even if you did do that all it would get you is two flattened 480i images unless you also scan doubled the video input. More expense and complexity.

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Post by VIRAND » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:53 pm

I'm misunderstood.

This is not meant to be an "us against you" rant.

I build a lot of cool stuff you can't buy, but you CAN learn how to make it.
Business wants to keep you dumb so they can sell "other stuff" to you.

In fact they remove features and then you pay to get them back again.
I'm insulted by business like this and wonder why you aren't.
Watch a movie and see "FBI WARNING: You may be committing a felony"
Might as well rob a bank. They don't have a sign like that there.

You can make a "fake" HDTV that works from cheap stuff like old B&W TV's.
You coat the top and botton half (and maybe a middle third) of the screen with
primary colors... although RGB are the usual primary colors ... orange and cyan
works so well that the first consumer color camcorders used those instead.
A beam splitter is simply just glass ... used like a mirror but you can also see thru it.
The "quality" of a black and white TV is simply how focused the tube is.
The design will work with a surplus TV bought for $19.95 also.
I suppose it looks more real if you can't see every little square pixel.

If you love your cell phone and don't care about the bill, you probably wouldn't
even care what I have to say even if I built an HDTV projector in a shiny phone.

I really only intended to say, "What are you thinking, Jeff Eckert, by saying on
page 8 of May 2007 Nuts and Volts, that some obscure -=Defined while High (HD)=-
Vista picture format will obsolete the one everyone in the world uses?".

"HD" Marketing Language:
"NEW ! (and Improved!) ULTRA EXTRA Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious DeLuxe PLUS
Digital-Analog Plug-N-Play Foolz-O-Matic COLOR 2000 Consumer Mind-Master System".
...or simply...
High Definition: " just another Plug-in-Drug."

VIRAND
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Post by VIRAND » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:34 pm

Hacklesup:

>I for one cannot see how this could be made to work at all.

>The TV would require so much serious modification that all that may be left of the original >would be the power cord.

My parents have a wide color tube HDTV, one of the first HDTV's sold.

>At the heart of the matter the B&W signals are fundimentally different than Digital signals. >It simply does not contain the same information.

A digital signal is what you hear on an old dialup modem when you dial up.
But whether you use analog or digital you expect to see and hear "the same information".

>At the dawn of Color TV there were some schemes that used a color wheel synchronized to >an interlaced R, G, B frame of the screen. Not too different than DLP really. To reenact >such a scheme, you would need to seriously digitally process the incoming video stream and >reoutput it to the display device. not simple or cheap in any respect. Such a signal would >have been different than NTSC (and likely too high a bandwith at that time to technically >produce)

1920's television bandwith was same as voice and sent over radio and recorded on 78 RPM
records.

>I suppose you might use three B&W screens each fed the R, G and B portions of the color >(color seperators were available, not sure about now) signal to each TV, then over drive the >PIX tube by cranking up its HV and brightness (some more mods) Finally using optics, >recombine each image on the same screen through color filters. Oh, I just described a 3 >beam projector TV, been done.

Actually I'm partitioning the single picture tube into multiple colors in a way that
may make it just as bright as 3 tubes. Everything else is accurate.

>Considering a security CRT, they often did have 4 inputs to display multiple cameras on >screen. A varient of the above 3 beam schenario is at least concieveable. The optics to >recombine the image would not be cheap at least as a proto. SOme of these CRTs may have >higher than 480i resolution so that 4X 480i images could be displayed while still maintaining >clarity (not sure about that)

Having "old obsolete" discarded security CRT's I say that's what I've done for free.
I've also sent projected 3D video over analog audio bandwidth (14400 baud)
at low resolution 360 degree viewing area, and standard resolution VR HUD's,
also with a junk budget, and before I ever heard of or saw an HDTV.

>I never tried inputting the component video (Pb, Pr, Y) outputs to the composite input >(Yellow RCA jack) one at a time, using a HD tuner, you might get around the color >seperation steps but I think you just get garbage.

That is a good idea, and could work except for flicker; it's easier to speed up the TV
than the component video signal.

>No mattrer what, whithout doubling the vert scan frequency of the CRT, you will never get >more than 480i display. Even if you did do that all it would get you is two flattened 480i >images unless you also scan doubled the video input. More expense and complexity.

For a black and white TV, increasing the scan rate can squeeze more lines on the screen,
and the horizontal dots are limited only by the frequency response of the analog parts.
A computer monitor is much more ready to be hacked that way, and can also be
de-colorized (because there is an advantage in not trying to project a
normal color image as it usually appears on the tube- more rez and brighter) .


Mr.AL:

This is a hack, not a product. I am trying to explain how the hack is done.
I may post a schematic if it's convenient and seems easy to follow.
And if it posts big enough to read.

This project currently requires sufficient knowledge of video tech to
KNOW IT CAN BE DONE.
I admit it might not be compatible with HDTV standards but certainly
can impress your friends because they think they're watching expensive HDTVs, at least.

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