I'd like to expand on my initial posting. I wanted to point out that a grid based electric vehicle will not be able to make it in the current world. Forget the electric car; we do not have the infrastructure for it. That was my point. A heat wave hits and the ACs turn on. (Mine's on. I don't plan on turning it off.)
Our grid CANNOT handle everyone turning on air conditioners in summer. This is shown by the California blackouts. An electric car plugged into the grid will draw more current to recharge the batteries than the AC will. And cars will be used 365 days a year. In winter the charge times may even go up as batteries are much less efficient in cold weather. In northern Illinois we have a temperature range of over 130 degrees F (-25 winter 105 in hot summers).
Now add in a couple storms that are not Katrina strenght by any means. These are just storms that are part of every summer. I lost a flag pole, neighbors lost trees, many people in Chicago (just east of me 60 miles) lost power for a few days. The storms that went through are something that happens routinely and have happened for as long as I can remember. I'm sure the storms that went through my area are no different than the storms that St. Louis had. Yet they go days without power being restored. Tie in making your car(s) dependent on this system. Certain areas of the nation would be paralized. Lest you think you could buy a generator and charge up the car, think again. The generator would have to have a CAR SIZED engine to produce the power needed to recharge the car and run the house. You couldn't use a mini generator from the Big Box home improvement store; this would be something like a Generac whole house generator minimum.
Another couple points. During the time the storms went through it was cloudy for several days. Solar won't do it when it is cloudy. I'd expect that any wind mill for home use would meet the same fate as my flag pole or the neighbors trees. It would have to be commercial wind power; and those don't get built that often.
A company tried to get a wind farm permit to build a site near me. I'd welcome the project. County officials did not grant them building rights. There is nothing but farms and one or two schools north of me where they wanted to build. My understanding is that some fought the project because it would kill birds and make noise. Great thinking.
In another posting I pointed out that Ethanol is being fought because it uses "too much water". Simple chemistry says you create a hydrocarbon chain from water you DO lose water. But when you burn the HC product it combins with air to form carbon dioxide and a WATER VAPOR. You get your water back.
So....
Electric cars can't make it with what we have as wind, rain, and heat saps the grid.
We can't use wind as this kills birds. I know the area where they wanted to build these wind mills. A few farms. (The only other sub division further north of me in this county has not even dug its first foundation. And it would have been a few miles from the wind mills.) The wind mills would have been in a sparsely poplulated area. Except for one two lane paved road the only roads into the area where the wind mills were suppposed to be built are gravel or dirt. But I doubt they will ever be built.
We can't dam rivers as then the salmon can't spawn.
We can't build power plants because burning coal produces "green house gases" and nuclear produces a waste that will plague our decendants for thousands of years.
We can't use ethanol because it uses too much water and "big oil" won't allow it to happen. (They are trying to build an ethanol plant about 20 miles from me, again out in the country. But the NIMBYs are fighting it. Come build it by me, I know where there was supposed to be a wind farm that is now not going to be built.)
We depend on getting oil from a region of the world where peace will NEVER happen in our life time.
Sorry, I'm just full of <something> and vinegar about having to spend $100's to fill my gas tank and will be seeing my electric rates skyrocket in the next few months and NOTHING that can stop this is being done. And there are no plans for other options.
Electric Cars
Yikes. Negativity abounds.
A few points-summer usage of air conditioners is primarily during the heat of day, whereas electric vehicles would be primarily charged overnight. (In most areas, at a lower rate than daytime power).
A hurricane or other natural disaster is going to upset any grid, if you're dependent on it. You may have to fire up a gas-powered generator for those rare times. Your solar panels will be useful as well, but there again, not all the time.
Depending on where you live, YOU may well be allowed to install a wind generator on your land.
YOU also may take an interest in brewing your own ethanol for fuel for your home heating, car, or generator.
YOU can install solar panels.
My point is that the electric car ain't yet here to replace the IC car. What we can do is use an electric whenever we can to replace the IC useage.
Think of it the next time you hop over to the store that's 2-20 miles away. Or when you visit a few miles away. Most of those trips could well be satisfied by an electric, which you can provide the fuel for, independent of oil.
The electric can replace MANY of our trips, thereby reducing the use of oil.
A few points-summer usage of air conditioners is primarily during the heat of day, whereas electric vehicles would be primarily charged overnight. (In most areas, at a lower rate than daytime power).
A hurricane or other natural disaster is going to upset any grid, if you're dependent on it. You may have to fire up a gas-powered generator for those rare times. Your solar panels will be useful as well, but there again, not all the time.
Depending on where you live, YOU may well be allowed to install a wind generator on your land.
YOU also may take an interest in brewing your own ethanol for fuel for your home heating, car, or generator.
YOU can install solar panels.
My point is that the electric car ain't yet here to replace the IC car. What we can do is use an electric whenever we can to replace the IC useage.
Think of it the next time you hop over to the store that's 2-20 miles away. Or when you visit a few miles away. Most of those trips could well be satisfied by an electric, which you can provide the fuel for, independent of oil.
The electric can replace MANY of our trips, thereby reducing the use of oil.
My AC is on 24/7 during heat waves such as what is going on now. During the day I keep it at 78 as I only want to keep the humidity out. At night I take it down to 70 so I can sleep. (Fan you say? I have a 60" ceiling fan running in my bedroom at night while sleeping. There is a fan at the base of my stairs that blows the cold air from down stairs up stairs. (While it might be 70 down stairs it will be 77 upstairs. By using a fan blowing up the stairs I can make the upstairs 74 or slightly lower.)jwax wrote: {SNIP}
A few points-summer usage of air conditioners is primarily during the heat of day, whereas electric vehicles would be primarily charged overnight. (In most areas, at a lower rate than daytime power).
{SNIP}
The electric can replace MANY of our trips, thereby reducing the use of oil.
But I've heard the "cheaper rates" at night as an excuse for electric cars. How does this work? My meter is electromechanical and does not have a clock on it. It spins the same speed with the same load no matter what time of day it is. Let's say for the sake of argument that I turned the AC off from 6:00AM when I get up in the morning until 6:00PM when I start dinner. The AC kicks in only between the evening and early morning. How are my rates CHEAPER at night? The meter spins based on the load, not the time of day so I pay the same rate no matter when I use the electricity. Maybe electricity is cheaper for BUSINESSES that have more complex meters, but I've not seen a residential meter with a time of day clock on it.
You state another poplar myth regarding electric cars. Unless you live in a big city with near by grocery stores and what not you can use an electric car. My round trip to work and back is about 30 to 40 miles, depending on any stops I make after work. In another posting I related how this one guy had an electric car in the town I grew up in. I'd see him pushing it home a number of times. The trip he'd make was about a mile one way, if that. But many times I'd see him pushing it home.
An electric car would take hours to charge to get about a 40 mile capacity out of it. I can "recharge" a gasoline car with 40 gallons of charge in about ten minutes. This includes turning off the road, swiping at the pump, filling the tank, taking the receipt, then getting a cold beverage from the mini mart inside. And my car will easily get me 500 or 600 miles on a charge. (Suburban, 40 usable gallons, est 15 MPG)
Hybrids MIGHT be okay. The ones I've seen at auto shows seem more battery than car. I've not seen the more recent ones so I cannot give a thumbs up or down on them. The older ones I give two thumbs down.
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced!
Where you live certainly affects your energy costs. My elec cost $0.1256/KWH day, and $0.0634 from 11 PM to 7 AM. Shows on my bill.
Your A/C hopefully does not work nearly so hard at night than it does during the day. Plus, we're talking about the heat wave- 2-3 months out of 12. An overnight charge while you sleep takes none of your time except to plug in and unplug.
I'm curious what others pay for electricity. And if they have variable day/night rates.
Your A/C hopefully does not work nearly so hard at night than it does during the day. Plus, we're talking about the heat wave- 2-3 months out of 12. An overnight charge while you sleep takes none of your time except to plug in and unplug.
I'm curious what others pay for electricity. And if they have variable day/night rates.
-
Robert Reed
- Posts: 2277
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:01 am
- Location: ASHTABULA,OHIO
- Contact:
Jwax
Here in Northeast Ohio, we have a summer rate and a winter rate. Summer rates are higher but I dont have exact info on hand at the moment. No difference between day and night. The overall yearly average is about $0.07 per KWH. It has been said that our area has the highest rates in the country, but I dont know if that still holds true with #*##*!@# regulation. However I was not paying much less than this 30 yrs. ago. I still think electric power is one of the best deals going. Try hand sawing a stack of 4/4 white oak as opposed to a few pennys of electricity by plugging in your circular saw.
Here in Northeast Ohio, we have a summer rate and a winter rate. Summer rates are higher but I dont have exact info on hand at the moment. No difference between day and night. The overall yearly average is about $0.07 per KWH. It has been said that our area has the highest rates in the country, but I dont know if that still holds true with #*##*!@# regulation. However I was not paying much less than this 30 yrs. ago. I still think electric power is one of the best deals going. Try hand sawing a stack of 4/4 white oak as opposed to a few pennys of electricity by plugging in your circular saw.
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
The nearest gas station is one mile away and I believe they have a generator. I know of at least one station about ten miles away that has a generator for sure as well as a general aviation airport three miles away. While they would not fill my car at the airport, I could get a five gallon can filled up to power my ultralight.hlreed wrote:if there is a power outage you can't get gasoline either. Then you will be glad you have some charge left in your electric car.
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced!
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Robert- $0.07 is nowhere near the "highest rate in the country". See:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricit ... _tabs.html
Don't know what kind of meter I have, just know the bill is divided between day rates and night rates. Guess I thought everybody got billed that way. Night rate is about half of the day rate. Is this news to anybody else?
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricit ... _tabs.html
Don't know what kind of meter I have, just know the bill is divided between day rates and night rates. Guess I thought everybody got billed that way. Night rate is about half of the day rate. Is this news to anybody else?
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
Money.... sounds soo republican?
It is more important than breathing, living, or the the world?
No wonder some of the territories in the Pacific are already gone, our debate is still over cost?
http://www.janeresture.com/oceania_warming1/
Children,...we were stupid, politicians said it can be done for the buck....Bahahahah we can do it cheap....Go neo con dain brammage
It is more important than breathing, living, or the the world?
No wonder some of the territories in the Pacific are already gone, our debate is still over cost?
http://www.janeresture.com/oceania_warming1/
Children,...we were stupid, politicians said it can be done for the buck....Bahahahah we can do it cheap....Go neo con dain brammage
-
Robert Reed
- Posts: 2277
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:01 am
- Location: ASHTABULA,OHIO
- Contact:
-
Chris Smith
- Posts: 4325
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Bieber Ca.
For the electric rates and day/night, seasonal, or whatever depends on the area you live. Here in southern France, electricity is about 0.07 Euro/kwh during the day and about 0.04 at night (11pm to 7am). The meters are electronic and switch between the two rates. The bill then shows day usage and night usage. Over here, the electricity is nearly all nuclear with a bit of wind and such thrown in. There is little to none coal, oil, and gas plants. My apartment is setup to only kick on the hot water heater during the night. Then it just stores the hot water during the day. Sometimes we run out of hot water and have to turn it on during the day.
Back home in Oregon, you have a choice. They have flat rate, seasonal, day/night, etc. You have to determine what will be the cheapest for you. It just depends of how flexible you are when you use the electricity.
For electric cars, it is a bit of a problem. They could be handy for short commutes. But you have the extra weight, cost of the batteries, the energy/pollution associated with making of the batteries. It also just moves the source of pollution to the power plants. Some say this is fine since the power plants are easier to check/control pollution than the millions of cars on the road. Of course there is inefficiency involved. Most plants with steam driven turbines are about 33% efficient. Then losses stepping the voltage up/down, loss in the lines, losses while charging the battery, and losses in the electric motor. It is much more effective to burn the gas in the car than to burn natural gas/oil/coal to make the electricity to power the cars. If you have a clean/large source of electricity, things would be different.
Wind, solar, etc. currently have too low of an energy density to help out much as a power plant type setup. I am for these types of sources, but they just don't have what it takes to feed the current hunger for electricity. I do think it would be nice if everyone had one of these sources to help out their own use. Solar/wind don't work so well large scale, but could be very effective if everyone added solar panels (PV, or for water heating) or some sort of generator from wind/water. It would greatly reduce the demand on the grid. Of course, these types of energy work better in some places than in others.
I like hybrids, but they do add complexity and cost to the car. It would be worth it in the long run to use less oil though. Fuel cells are a ways off before they become cheap enough to use in cars. Many diesels do well on fuel too. Of course the best solution is to just not drive or drive less, but that solution is not viable to everyone.
Kent
Back home in Oregon, you have a choice. They have flat rate, seasonal, day/night, etc. You have to determine what will be the cheapest for you. It just depends of how flexible you are when you use the electricity.
For electric cars, it is a bit of a problem. They could be handy for short commutes. But you have the extra weight, cost of the batteries, the energy/pollution associated with making of the batteries. It also just moves the source of pollution to the power plants. Some say this is fine since the power plants are easier to check/control pollution than the millions of cars on the road. Of course there is inefficiency involved. Most plants with steam driven turbines are about 33% efficient. Then losses stepping the voltage up/down, loss in the lines, losses while charging the battery, and losses in the electric motor. It is much more effective to burn the gas in the car than to burn natural gas/oil/coal to make the electricity to power the cars. If you have a clean/large source of electricity, things would be different.
Wind, solar, etc. currently have too low of an energy density to help out much as a power plant type setup. I am for these types of sources, but they just don't have what it takes to feed the current hunger for electricity. I do think it would be nice if everyone had one of these sources to help out their own use. Solar/wind don't work so well large scale, but could be very effective if everyone added solar panels (PV, or for water heating) or some sort of generator from wind/water. It would greatly reduce the demand on the grid. Of course, these types of energy work better in some places than in others.
I like hybrids, but they do add complexity and cost to the car. It would be worth it in the long run to use less oil though. Fuel cells are a ways off before they become cheap enough to use in cars. Many diesels do well on fuel too. Of course the best solution is to just not drive or drive less, but that solution is not viable to everyone.
Kent
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 167 guests