regulator or rectifier or both ??? anyone know..

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dacflyer
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regulator or rectifier or both ??? anyone know..

Post by dacflyer » Mon May 15, 2006 4:55 pm

i got here a regulator / rectifier?? it came off of a harley i belive..
its made by tympanium corp.
its got H-D on the rubber part of the fixture , its black , with heat sink fins
its got 3 10Ga. wires, all black.. 2 are in a moulded conector , and the third middle wire i belive is the wire to goto the battery..

the only number i can find on it is 3135A
1793

i am trying to know if this is a rectifier regulator and a example of how its utilised..
i am wantig to see if it will work on a engine i have here, thats got a lighting coil.. 40VAC @ 150 Watts , but i cannot find any info on this part, i can find the web site, but it yields no info.. just sales info...
anyone perhaps a motorcycle guy here know ?

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Chris Smith
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Post by Chris Smith » Mon May 15, 2006 5:35 pm

It could be a Zener Regulator?

Diode and regulator?

The british did it that way, crude clipping all the over voltage to ground, amps and all.

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Post by cato » Tue May 16, 2006 4:51 am

The poorly pasted chart below indicates that harleys have regulator rectifiers



HARLEY DAVIDSON YEAR STATOR PRICE REGULATOR/RECTIFIER PRICE
BIG TWINS EVO 89-99 ESG990 99.00 ESR850 $79.00
FLH-FLT 97-98 ESG990 99.00 ESR851 $79.00
FLH-FLT TWINCAM 99-05 ESG995 99.00 ESR851 $79.00
SOFTTAIL 01-05 ESG995 99.00 ESR850 $79.00
DYNA 04-05 ESG995 99.00 ESR850 $79.00

it is from this aftermarket charging system parts supplier (you can tell those aint Harley prices):

http://www.electrosport.com/electrospor ... RLEY-11481

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Post by dacflyer » Thu May 18, 2006 9:08 am

i still cannot find the info i am looking for, like a sample wiring diagram,
the stator in my engine,,i am sure the power they put out is a/c
but yet i am trying to bench test this item with an ac transformer,
i was told that this regulator / rectifier was a good one,,but yet i get nothing out of it..
anyone maybe have more info to share ?

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Post by Chris Smith » Thu May 18, 2006 1:18 pm

Lets start with how many wires does it have?

Most regulators oscillate the field windings. That means the voltage ramps up to the regulation point, then reaches the ideal voltage and cuts out, either for the feed voltage to the coils or the ground return from the coils.

When this happens the main feed wire to the coil windings [pos or neg] cuts out, and as the voltage drops in the circuit, the regulator cuts back in and again raises it to the desired voltage, and this oscillation keeps the voltage regulated at the cut off point.

The way to test a regulator is not with AC, but with a variable input from 0 to 16 volts DC.

You feed into one wire [the signal voltage input wire] the variable voltage to make it cut off at the desired voltage,..... and with a powered light bulb attached to the other [2] leads,... this forms a power loop and in this loop the light bulb should light up.

Like relay points contacting, this forms a loop.

The signal wire will break this loop at the proper voltage similar to opening the points in a relay.

Only two of the three points forms the loop, the third is for control. But all must share a common ground in these wires to form two grounded or common loops. One for control, the other for the controlled.

But also keep in mind the body or ground may be one of the pair of wires that is the relay portion or controlled out put,... or it may be the body of the relay it self if there is only two wires, and a body mount bolt hole for the regulator?

You may have to ground the body of the unit, and apply a light bulb and power to one wire completing a ground loop, and the other wire when the voltage raises, cut out this ground completion loop.

Regulators can be positive controlling switches, or negative [ground] controlling switches. They either cut out a feed voltage to the coil or they remove the ground at the coils to control and regulate the loop.

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Post by dacflyer » Fri May 19, 2006 10:29 pm

chris >> i think your refering to a standard regulator for a car..an even older car with relay type...lol

this one i have is made for a motor cycle, and i found out it is a
rectifier / regulator and its to be used with a stator.

2 wires in...out is 1 hot wire, and the case is ground..

i am starting to belive this one i got is bad..

from what i understand, i should be able to bench test a rectifier / regulator with a AC transformer.. cause a stator and transformer are both ac output.. or ?

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Post by dacflyer » Mon May 22, 2006 12:03 pm

ok,, i had time to do some research,, this regulator i have in question is bad,,but i dug into it,,it was potted with a silicone type material,,the rectifiers are bad, i repaired this unit..
i also discovered it is a shunt regulator :(
now my question is... since this is a shunt regulator, how do i keep it from burning out a stator / lighting coil...when the battery is fully charged, it puts a short or a near short across the stator... i know this, because the transformer i used for bench testing, started growling hard once the battery reached about 14volts , so i put in series with the transformers secondary, a 375 watt lamp, again i tested,, when the battery reached about 14 volts, the regulator shunted,,and the lamp had a fairly good glow to it..

this may not be for me to use... i really need to find a non-shunt type regulator

anyone got any ideas?

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Post by Chris Smith » Mon May 22, 2006 1:39 pm

DAC

There are many types of regulator methods.

SS, Coils and relay, shunt, resistor, clipping, Zener etc.

The same principles apply across the board for ALL cars, trucks, and even motorcycles and lawn mowers.

It depends on what they chose for your application and how your alternator or magneto is wired.

I have seen 50 amp Zener diode shunt and clip all the excess power and voltage from an alternator on a BSA to ground, and they called that regulation in the UK? [Poor mans regulation]

I have repaired motorcycles that use car type solid state regulators that oscillate either the feed or the ground wire in the windings. I have repaired mechanical relay types that do the same.

If you know what type of system you have, you don’t have to chose the exact replacement part and you can substitute any “work alikeâ€

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Post by dacflyer » Mon May 22, 2006 8:26 pm

ok chris...rectification is not the problem then for me,,
regulation is..
the lighting coil is designed to put out about 40 volts at 150 watts..
i think that comes to about 3.75 amps ?

so i need a regulator for such.. and the guys down at local auto parts ar clueless...

i was thinking to use a lm317 but it will not handle the voltage or current

and this rectifier/regulator i was thinking to use.. will not work, because i am worried that since its a shunt regulator...that when it shunts, it will burn up my lighting coil after a while.. so i am looking for a non-shunting regulator..

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Post by Robert Reed » Mon May 22, 2006 8:36 pm

Look at the LM317 data sheets again. It will handle the voltage and current. You need to add a power transistor to it and bias up the ADJ. pin. Its in NATIONAL's spec sheets. BTW, I never could understand the benefit of using shunt regulators, other than simple Zener circuits at low power and limited range.

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Chris Smith
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Post by Chris Smith » Mon May 22, 2006 9:30 pm

Dac

If it’s the single coil and magnet type generation system similar to my old Suzuki magneto generator, the voltage regulator method will control the voltage. [But you will need to rectify it]

The Only thing I would add in is a few 40+v MOVs or other type suppressors to clip any wild spurious spikes, and a large cap if you don’t have a battery.

Magneto type generators have a wild unstable voltage and its not exactly clean either until you load it down.

You can also use a Power Fet or transistor, controlled by a smaller voltage regulator.

However, if you have the typical three phase alternator, the type where you have field windings and rotor windings you can use pretty much any type of SS auto regulator if you can work out the bias.

POS or NEG control?

Some control a feed current into the windings to energize the out put and clip or turn off at the desired voltage, others disconnect the grounds much like any transistor circuit at the cut off value.

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Post by dacflyer » Tue May 23, 2006 6:39 pm

chris smith >> its the single 2 wire type coil...
like i said,, rectifying it is not an issue,,just the regulator part i need to find.

none of the cycle shops areound here have any of what i need, they just have shunt types.

about the powerfet and regulator.... i can just have the output of the regulator input to the base of the of the power fet and it will work ?
is it that simple? or, is that just block diagram talk ?

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Post by Chris Smith » Tue May 23, 2006 6:49 pm

Dac

When you say 2 wires, what does each do?

Is there a excitor field winding and a main coil winding, ....or just two seperate coils and magnets driving them? [dual magneto]

The fet system or transistor system can be found on any data sheet for V Regulators.

"How to increase your current capibilities", using a LM ####7 regulator.

If Necessary, I could look up my old data books and post you a copy.

The National Semiconductor Linear data book, ....section one,... Voltage regulators,..... lists dozens of examples of how to increase a 200 ma
V regulator to five, ten amps, or more.

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Post by dacflyer » Wed May 24, 2006 5:40 am

chris >> the 2 wires are from a single coil and powered by the magnets on the flywheel, the 2 wires output 40 volts ac.
i can rectify this easily , i just need to find or make me a regulator that can handle at least 5 amps..
i just got a brainstorm,, i'll search e-bay also.

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regulators saddle up!

Post by hulagan » Mon May 29, 2006 8:31 am

dacflyer,

I feel your pain, been there, done that. The stator you have is permanent magnet powered. So shunting really is the proper way to regulate, after all how do you shut the field down when the magnets are permanent? The good news is it looks like you have the right rect/reg already. Excellent ones shunt well under 15v so the bat won't boil. The stator loves a load so make sure that you are maxed out when under charging conditions. If this is so, a minimum of juice needs to be shunted when bat is full. Usually the shunt will be AC to ground back to stator heating it up, sooo run an AC dump load to ground from reg, such as a light, or (vibration considered) an led and a proper sized ballast resistor may be better. but make sure to use the led so when stator voltage is being dumped you will see that all is working well or not. At 300 F or so the insulating varnish on the coil wires burn up, so a temp gauge might be in order. 250 degree redline seems right but I personally like 225. This way even if you lose your dump load you will notice the rise in temp, but if you maxed out under charge conditions youre stator will stay happy (as stock) and the rise in temp should be minimal. Your stator sounds small so you shouldn't have too much trouble maxing it out. A lack of load is what burns up stators the most so if a load burns out, the dump load is nice insurance. Hope this helps, I have found this to be the only way to deal with stators. Never shunt all of the output during testing for any length of time or risk burning it up, only expected wattage used for bat charging after all loads are tallied . Same goes for running stator unloaded. Also keep in mind that your bat (if small) probably can't handle much more than 1 amp during charging when there is no load. Aloha
paradise it aint if you hafta work

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