Forget Hydrogen

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terri
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by terri » Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:40 pm

"You were supposed to use peanut oil because it wouldn’t diesel on its own." That's interesting. Was this a MFR recommendation? Seems to me although it might not diesel, it sure would oxidize over time, like linseed oil, and gum up the works... Yes? No?<p>I use the Crosman Pellgun oil, because it seems to be just for this application, and I don't want to screw the gun up. <p>I had it priced, with the original Beeman variable scope (3X-7X ?) that was mounted on it, and it came out to well over a third of a grand about five years ago. <p>
This thing is incredibly accurate and very powerful even when it doesn't diesel, since it will punch through both sides of a coffee can at about 7 yards. As a consequence, I rarely shoot it anymore, but just keep it in a box. <p>
I understand that there are now one-pump air rifles specifically designed for hunting which are about at this power level, but this one was a regular off-the-shelf air rifle MFRed before wimmen got into the act and toned down everything [email protected] that might get someone all hurted and boo-booed (editorial comment).<p>[ September 10, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
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Chris Smith
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by Chris Smith » Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:59 pm

When I priced out the rifle it is was $2400 back in the early 80s. My pistol was a knock off with their brand on it. <p>I believe Feinwerkebau merged with two other companies back then with one scope maker [Tasco?] and one gun maker [Beeman]. <p>All oils oxidize and peanut oil can be bad, but aside from cleaning the thing after every session, peanut oil has great properties for both cold and heat. <p>AC units use it so the minus temps don’t coagulate the oil, and high pressure and temp jobs also use it because of its resistance to burn, diesel, or change state. Same reason its used to make French fries, high temps with out burning. [but bad for the heart!] <p>Air, over time can make a mess of old peanut oil which is why cleaning it out is essential if air is involved.<p>And yes, the gun dealer told me about the peanut oil and one synthetic oil, both recommended.<p>[ September 10, 2005: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</p>

terri
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by terri » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:23 am

Well, thanks. An interesting aside. I guess maybe now we should go back to the subject of "creating" hydrogen out of nothing. <p>
I don't see what the big problem is. All you've got to do is mix a bucket of electrons with a bucket of protons and you get two buckets of hydrogen.<p>
Right?
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Chris Smith
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by Chris Smith » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:45 am

Those hydrogen Moles are sticky bastards, they don’t want to give up anything!

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jwax
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by jwax » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:48 am

Just another H2 solution for us to discuss-
Gotta hand it to those Canadians! :)
http://www.canada.com/montreal/montreal ... e96&page=1

terri
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by terri » Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:02 am

The sum total of technical information in the whole four pages is:<p>"... (snip)... Basically, the H2N-Gen contains a small reservoir
of distilled water and other chemicals such as potassium hydroxide.
A current is run from the car battery through the liquid. This
process of electrolysis creates hydrogen and oxygen gases which
are then fed into the engine's intake manifold where they mix
with the gasoline vapours.<p>"It's a scientific fact that adding hydrogen to a combustion
chamber will cause a cleaner burn. The challenge has always been
to find a way to get the hydrogen gas into the combustion chamber
in a safe, reliable and cost-effective way."<p>The rest of the article is bizhype.<p>So, apparently, this device is not intended to add calories by
the hydrogen recombination, but to reduce emissions.<p>Ne'ertheless, it takes energy from somewhere to electrolyze the
water to generate the hydrogen. I note in the last pages of the
article, apparently, the mileage (or "kilometerage") did not seem
to be as good as without the device installed.<p>So? Do we have here a system for decreasing measured emission
percentages but which decreases the total efficiency (that is,
mileage)?<p>I'd like to see where the crossover point for benefit versus
detriment is in this scheme.<p>And I'll bet it's the oxygen addition
which reduces the emissions more than the hydrogen. I betcha!<p>
More info (as usual on this forum) needed.<p>And as I said before, wherever the business hype out-column-inches
the tech info, hold onto your wallet.<p>[ September 18, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
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Chris Smith
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by Chris Smith » Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:38 am

And potassium hydroxide cost lots of electricity to produce as well, another loss not counted into the equation. <p>And its energy level of out put use is limited to what was put in minus the loss of attrition in every conversion. thats two attrition levels of loss. One for making it, and one for its use.

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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by terri » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:06 pm

No, I think if they're using potassium hydroxide as an electrolyte, it will plate out onto the negative electrode, and then instantly react with the water to make potassium hydroxide again, plus the hydrogen, which bubbles out of the equation and the cell.<p>K + H20 --> KOH + H<p>You're right about the energy useage, though. As I said before, so many of these conservation things are like pushing in on a balloon. You push in here, and it comes out there.<p>[ September 18, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
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jwax
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by jwax » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:25 pm

terri- That sounds like add water to potassium hydroxide, apply a current, and hydrogen is the result?
OK electrochemists- we need an energy equation here!

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Chris Smith
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by Chris Smith » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:53 pm

Dont quote me here but I think it becomes hydrate from hydride or Vice versa?

terri
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Re: Forget Hydrogen

Post by terri » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:52 am

You are right, Jwax. Almost any chemical which
ionizes in water can be used to make an
electrolytic cell., Absolutley pure water
does not conduct electricity well --it's
actually a pretty fair insulator.<p>The danger with water + electrical
equipment is that the water which comes in
contact with the electrical equipment is
never pure enough to be an insulator --it's
always got dissolved salts of one kind or
another in it, which makes it a conductor.<p>If one uses potassium hydroxide
as an electrolyte, what gets attracted to the
negative electrode is the potassium ions.
These ions pick up an electron from the
negative electrode and become metallic
potassium --that is, metallic potassium is
actually plated onto the electrode.<p>But, since this is in a water solution,
the metallic potassium instantly reacts with
the water, grabbing the OH and yielding KOH
once again, and the extra hydrogen atom
forms up with another hydrogen atom
(another "nascent*" hydrogen atom) to
form H2, which bubbles away.<p>
The same reaction will occur if you toss
a piece of potassium into water. It reacts
violently to form H2 and 2(KOH). This happens
with a number of metals, like sodium and
calcium. In fact, The reaction of water
with sodium is so violent that a small
piece of sodium will not sink in the
water, but will "sizzle" around on the
surface and enough heat can be formed to
ignite the hydrogen generated by the
reaction. This used to be a classic
demonstration in chemistry classes. With
sodium and water, the reaction product
is sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or ordinary
household lye. <p>
Oh, and hydrogen, of course.<p>
If either sodium or potassium chloride is
used as an electrolyte, gaseous chlorine
is generated at the positive electrode
and bubbles away. This is why salt
water getting into the battery
compartment of the old non-nuclear subs
was so dangerous... a lot of chlorine
was produced when the sea water was
electrolyzed by the batteries.<p>----------------<p>
* "Nascent" = "newly born", as in "rennaissance,"
or "rebirth." When hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)
decomposes into oxygen and water when touching
a wound, the oxygen atom thus formed is a "nascent"
oxygen atom, and it takes time to link up with
another oxygen atom to form O2. In the meantime,
it is in a very highly reactive state, and will
react with the germs, killing them by oxidation.
That's why H2O2, hydrogen peroxide (3%) is
used as an antiseptic. This "nascent"
oxygen atom will also bleach hair --hence
the term "peroxide blonde."<p>[ September 20, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
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