school projects

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perfectbite
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Re: school projects

Post by perfectbite » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:10 pm

For what it is worth, I agree with josmith.

bodgy
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Re: school projects

Post by bodgy » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:13 am

It is even worse when the person doing the plagerising is a student teacher studying I.T. who for her final year assement decided to copy and paste word for word an article on her topic from the internet and duly handed it in.<p>She was extremely upset when she was called to explain, and I was extremely miffed to find out that the University came to an accomodation in that they would allow her a pass mark if she just added a page referencing the copied material.<p>She has now taught IT in secondary schools in Queensland and the UK.<p>She never did understand my reasons why I thought her degree was fraudulent, and thought it showed initiative on her part.<p>
Colin
On a clear disk you can seek forever.

Mike6158
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Re: school projects

Post by Mike6158 » Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:45 am

Well... I consider myself a student in that I am continually trying to learn (not just electronics). I try to word my questions such that I don't appear to be asking for a design. I don't want someone to do it for me. I want to understand what I am doing and why I am doing it. For most "technical minded" people that's the norm. Here's a good example of that- For almost 30 years... boy that sucks to say that... I have been working with process control systems. 4-20mA signals are the mainstay of a typical electronic system. I've wired them, calibrated them, trouble shot them, designed elaborate multi million dollar control systems that used them but, until the about 10 years or so ago, I didn't know "how" they were generated. It's only been in the last 5 years that I began to understand the relationship between a digital word of info and the resulting analog signal. The point is that I could have done my job without knowing how an analog signal is generated... but that's not good enough for me. How do you get today's young people to adopt a "how does that work" approach or is it just a personality "thing" that can't be changed?<p>Plagiarism- It's not plagiarism if the original author is given credit for his/her work. Unfortunately that takes time and everyone is in a big hury these days. Remember the pace of life when you were a kid? Now look at the pace that we live at. Now think about what that means for our kids in 20 years. That's a bummer...
"If the nucleus of a sodium atom were the size of a golf ball, the outermost electrons would lie 2 miles away. Atoms, like galaxies, are cathedrals of cavernous space. Matter is energy."

Dean Huster
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Re: school projects

Post by Dean Huster » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:27 pm

I think it is a special person who wants to know the why and how of something even though that knowledge is not necessary in the day-to-day job. The 4-20ma loop was a good example of that. As you said, you can retire after a career of working on those systems without knowing a thing about constant current sources and such. But the curious person who learns about them might be able to design an oddball interface that would otherwise be unavailable or cost thousands of dollars if it is.<p>"Plagiarism- It's not plagiarism if the original author is given credit for his/her work."<p>Usually, a paper rewords the source material or cites short quotations that are used. When a person simply cuts-and-pastes material, it's no longer uncredited quotation, but copyright infringement. What our teachers have always failed to mention is the fact that really long quotations often require permission from the copyright holder, regardless of their use in a research paper. It's amazing how many schools (and churches!) think they are above copyright law because of who they are and how the material is being used. Schools are just starting to wake up to copyright law, although our local community college is still in the stone age with regard to that issue.<p>By the way, sorry about the ranting and raving with my previous post. Must've been after midnight or something.<p>Dean
Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon
Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines).

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terri
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Re: school projects

Post by terri » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:28 pm

Boy, you guys almost got me started on my own rant. I could be wrong, but from a tiny sample of observing, it seems that nowadays most "learning" occurs while watching instructional videos on the couch while munching Cheetos (TM) and swilling pop. With a rewind button and a pause button to go wee-wee or take a call on the cell phone.<p>As opposed to my years of affixing my soft white butt to a hard brown chair in many hours of Honest-To-Deity classroom time, where if you missed a point in your note-taking, you were crap out of luck until after the class, when you hoped some of your peers got that point or maybe you could approach the instructor for repetition.<p>Snarl. Growl.<p>
I don't know if I'm actually justified in my resentment about this, but nonetheless I do resent it. Maybe I'm wrong. Pedagogues among you, enlighten me on this point.<p>Darn it, I caught myself in a lie. You guys didn't almost start me on a rant. You did start me on a rant. <p>Shut up, Terri. Gitcher pay and drink yer beer and shut up.<p>Gr.<p>Snarl.<p>[ February 05, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
terri wd0edw

Mike6158
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Re: school projects

Post by Mike6158 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:08 am

Terri- I just went thru a 1/2 day "managers" safety awareness seminar. Manager / mangler / whats the diff. Out of 50 people about 15 were "safety professionals". I figured that the seminar presenter would be kissing their rears because they hired him. NOT... He even whupped up on a couple of VP's :)
"If the nucleus of a sodium atom were the size of a golf ball, the outermost electrons would lie 2 miles away. Atoms, like galaxies, are cathedrals of cavernous space. Matter is energy."

Mike6158
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Re: school projects

Post by Mike6158 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:13 am

I forgot why I came back to this thread :D
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>How do people feel about helping students with projects? I see this in other electronics group and have noticed a couple of requests like this lately.<p>Here's my take on it. If the student identifies themself and a) asks intelligent questions and b) doesn't ask that the project be done for them, then I dont mind helping. Questions that indicate they have already done some work are good.<p>However, I really do object to a student coming here and asking for a completed design. Or completely clueless questions that indicate a total absence of any preparation. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree with Phil (and others). No gimmee's. This stuff isn't that hard if you put some effort into it. I'm certainly no expert. Not even close. But I get by with help.<p>I get enough "I want it RFN" at work. Life is better when you slow it down...<p>The web is chock full of info and designs. I would rather see "How does this work" questions than "Make me one of these"...
"If the nucleus of a sodium atom were the size of a golf ball, the outermost electrons would lie 2 miles away. Atoms, like galaxies, are cathedrals of cavernous space. Matter is energy."

terri
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Re: school projects

Post by terri » Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:03 pm

philba said, "How do people feel about helping students with projects? I see this in other electronics group and have noticed a couple of requests like this lately."<p>When I was a puppy, I started a sort of half-baked element collection. Not big, not formal, just samples of a few elements which I kept in gelatin capsules taped to index cards.<p>A number of years ago (before the Internet was popular), somebody mentioned that her boy wanted to do a science project for school, and she asked me what might be a good thing. The young man did not want to do the "usual" stuff, so half in jest, I suggested that he start an element collection.<p>I said, "Tell you what. I'll lend you a copy of my old (1953) Chemical Rubber Handbook that I used in high school. That ought to get him started." <p>I tracked the boy's project, and he'd call me for advice or questions on one thing or another, but in the main, he would look up the element, find out all about it, where it was used, and go track down a sample for the collection, all on his own.<p>When the project was just about ready for presentation, he asked about what he could put the samples in, and I told him to check with a pharmacist. According to his mom, when they got to the pharmacy, he walked right up to the window, explained what he needed to the pharmacist, and obtained a bunch of screw-top vials from him. His mom was amazed, because normally he was a pretty shy young man, and "he'd never just walk up to somebody and ask about something like that." <p>Apparently, the young man's motivation for the element collection overcame his reticence. And he showed quite a bit of ingenuity in obtaining some of these samples. All on his own, he obtained some pure titanium from a local laboratory... and the like. <p>In some cases, he could not obtain a pure sample --phosphorus, for example --so he'd find something which contained the element as a principal ingredient. In the case of phosphorus, he used the striker pad on matchbooks, which contain pure red phosphorus, and on the collection he had a carefully typed-out card explaing that this was only one form of phosphorus and explained allotropism... he used diamonds versus carbon versus graphite as another example of allotropic forms of elements.<p>The display was well done, with each element described on a card, with deeper explanations and comments as you read through each element's card. I forgot how many elements he had collected, but it was more than I had ever collected, so I was impressed on that account.<p>He won the Science Fair.<p>I can take no credit for this, mind you. The resourcefulness and diligence he showed in this project, as well as the excellent presentation of the collection, won him the prize. <p>And it wasn't even an "action" project with whirligigs or smoke or thingies doing thingies. <p>The samples, after all, just sat there. When somebody was by his table, he'd show samples of iron, chromium, nickel and vanadium (I don't know where he got a pure sample of that) and telling how these formed stainless steel. He had a pic of a blast furnace with these four elements grouped near it.<p>And, despite the fact that his mom told me he was into my ancient Chemical Rubber Handbook all the time, looking up stuff, and just plain reading it, guess what?<p>When he returned it to me, not one thin rice-paper page was even wrinkled!<p>Wow.<p>[ February 09, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
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philba
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Re: school projects

Post by philba » Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:40 pm

that's a great story. I wish there were more kids around like him.

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