Technology Backfire?

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:33 pm

Thanks, but It's not the A/C relay. I've been through that one in an '09' CRV. It stuck, the A/C compressor kept running and it popped the pressure relief. A new $4 relay and a shot of Freon and it was good ... until it was totaled!

Looking at the owner's manual online, since the glove box version is a second grade school primer, there is a ton of fuses in this 4 door 4 wheeled computer. By the owner's manual count, there are a total of 84 fuses in the engine bay and cabin fuse boxes. Yes, some may be missing because of options, but that's the count I got. What is really a surprise is that the majority of the fuses are all well above 15A so it looks like everything is separately fused. I guess all that fuse isolation is so an electrical fault don't affect other systems that may cause the electric assist steering to take you off to uncharted regions, with scrolling multi-language information display warnings while the NAV system is frantically trying to keep up....

I thought that all this modern electronics and LED lighting was low load technology. Well, I sure must have guessed wrong about that! Looks like 24 volts, or higher, is on the way in!

We are having snow and ice again today in the Northeast so it will be awhile until I get the current draw measurements. We drove the buggy today so It might be good being parked for a few days :mad:

Thanks all!
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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haklesup
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by haklesup » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm

Lenp, How cold? Its well known that batteries have less capacity in the cold. What is 3-4 days reserve in February might be better when things warm up. I agree it should be more than a week, really you need 2 weeks if you ever want to go on vacation and park at the airport. In my car, the dash cam cuts me down to 2.5 days standby if I forget to unplug it. When things warm up, I'll rewire it into ACC. I also had a problem with the steering wheel position switch tricking the alarm into going off over and over which can kill the battery. Various sensors in the car could be waking up a system and drawing load when it should not be.

If you force the dealer to figure it out, you might be without the car for days while they troubleshoot. While i'ts inconvenient to do it yourself, at least you will be in control of the situation and have your car when you need it. Finding and fixing the root cause may be beyond your resources but you can probably save days by narrowing it to a branch circuit.

One last suggestion, go through the audio settings menus and if you have Bluetooth or WiFi connectivity, turn it off, particularly if you use the android auto or apple car play options (don't know if they are truly off when the car is off). Also I see it has the power lift gate option available, proximity to the key fob will turn that on waiting for your foot to sweep the sensor. I mentioned keeping the fob isolated when not in use already, there is an example why.

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:07 pm

Thanks for the ideas. It looks like this week's time and temperature may be good for snooping out the gremlins.
With all those fuses, it might take a jug of coffee and back pain pills! I made a spreadsheet from the owner manual information so I can keep track of who is doing what, then it may be easier to see the total issues.
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by CeaSaR » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:55 pm

Temps aren't supposed to be that extreme, 20's F (I'm only about 3 hours or so from Len) won't strain the battery much unless it was already on the cusp.

Just for S's & G's, at night, leave your keys (however many sets) at the far end of the house away from the car. Then go out and inspect for any lights or activity around / in the car. That'll at least rule out any courtesy lights that may be inadvertantly left on.

When you get into the actual diagnosis, make sure the coffee's hot and sealed up (no spills in the new car!) and the Doan's pills are in date.

If all else fails don't forget the lemon laws.

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:51 am

By your succinct advice, methinks you have traveled this road before.

I keep my Doans, in the small green metal tube, in the drawer with Sucrets, Bag Balm and a red rubber thingie with a long hose.
Think they are still good? :razz:
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by CeaSaR » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:27 pm

Hmm...

Not really, just deductive reasoning following all the info presented so far. About the closest I've come is with my last car, a 2001 Chrysler 300M, when certain passengers would use the personal interior lights while I was driving (all the while being told to NOT use them while I'm driving - you can see how well THAT worked) and then when we would get to wherever we were going and get out of the car, they would leave said lights on, but we wouldn't notice due to the "courtesy lighting" function that kept the interior lit for ~30 seconds until it would fade off. Can't tell you how many times I had to get out / go back and turn one or more off, if I noticed it. Only once did it drop the battery low enough to cause concern but boy have I been vigilant ever since.

Now, my 2014 Charger actually shuts off any interior lights after a certain time if the car is not running / the key isn't present.

Everything that you and the others have said about how the damn car is always on "watch mode" for something to happen, makes me think that keeping both keys / key fobs far enough away to rule out their interaction while you investigate was prudent.

While you are at it, do you have an IR camera or an old digital camera you can take the IR filter out of? You could see if any IR sensors are on that shouldn't be when the car is off. God only knows what the Manu put in that they aren't really promoting.

As for the rest of that stuff, Sucrets in the tin, I think the local pharmacy still carries Bag Balm, and the hot water bottle with attachments brings back "Fleet"ing memories. :D
Haven't seen Doan's in years. Are we all getting old?
Hey, what do I know?

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:36 pm

Nope....not old....Older! I'm at the point in life where I'm too old for some things, and not old enough for the rest, but not yet at the point of buying half cups of coffee! Wow, we're up and it's late.

I guess we missed bed check! :???:

What's odd with this CRV's lighting is that there is LED in many places, like the inside door handle area, and the front foot well, I guess for ambiance, but there is no light is in the glove box? The courtesy lights, that, you mention being left get hot so they are either incandescent or halogen!

It's just nuts, Amazon has a set of 13 LED replacement lamps for this car for under $4 including slow boat Sampan shipping! When you start to understand, it's because you are becoming like them!
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by haklesup » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:25 pm

Even before you start pulling fuses you will want to figure out how many standby states the car has by observing the total standby current over a period of time with and without the key fob nearby perhaps jiggling the car to stimulate an oversensitive position sensor, opening various doors, unlocked and locked etc. There should be several, one for deep sleep might be being kicked into standby. If a typical battery has 100A reserve capacity, I think that means 100Ah; so if that lasts 4 days or about 100 hours, you are probably looking for a load in the 1A range for a good battery.

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CeaSaR
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by CeaSaR » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:02 pm

Anything stand out in the owners manual /guide? Heated seats on? Nav or Siri or other connectivity on? Just going by what I quick scanned here:
http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs ... /index.HTM
I still don't think that it should go flat that quick.

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:29 pm

haklesup, You are right. I don't plan on pulling fuses at first. I got a battery terminal switch and modified it for a secure connection of the ammeter. Once it is installed and the car gets out of it's agitated state, I can connect the ammeter, open the switch and make current measurements while the beast sleeps, unaware of my intrusion. Based on what I find, I may take additional readings over several days to see if anything changes, Then I will look for any voltage drop across each fuse. Maybe then I'll need to pull some fuses if the drop isn't too definite. So with a chart showing the 2 fuse boxes and possibly 80+ fuses that's a few cups of coffee.

Caesar, That book looks like a scanned copy of the glove box pamphlet. There is PDF copy online that's about 650 pages...Plus Honda will mail 1 free copy to the original owner, upon request. Very nice of them..
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by haklesup » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:35 am

I would think the series resistance of a fuse is too low to use as a series resistor. Wouldn't you be looking at uV at the most a few mV differentials. I can't say I've tried because I am biased by that opinion.

I'm inspired to get the meter in my first post's link for my explorer. I think the components I put in to save the battery are what's killing it. I put in a timer to turn off an ACC override after a timeout and a low voltage detector to buzz and disconnect ACC if the battery drops too low but those are powered off BATT and their quiescent current is too high. (the ACC override turns on the accessory power for 1 min or more (programmable) at the touch of a button without any key required. its intended for camping applications but good for closing the windows too.

Modifying the battery switch to be an ammeter interface was brilliant BTW. Makes it convenient, I just might implement a sense resistor bypass the same way if I do the charge meter (it would be this summer, other projects active now).

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:44 pm

Hi all,
I've been behind the 8-ball lately and there has been no time to collect readings from that new Honda, but then it hasn't been parked as long so there has been no starting issue.

Some thoughts are forming and the single big question is ..'Why do all these various systems need to be powered when parked?"
I can understand the keyless entry/remote start system being at the ready and available at my beck and call, but what else? The theft deterrent system? Well, not really if you consider that years ago the first vehicle alarm systems used pin switches, a relay and signal device. As low tech as it was, it drew zero current until activated, and like a modern system, it sounded the alarm!

Radio presets? Well this has been a a user convenience feature, powered during park for years, with minimal battery drain. If you disconnected the battery you needed to enter a security code that you never seemed to have, then reset the stations again. All this in an effort to prevent radio theft. Many new cars do not have a security code. The modern radio is no longer just an entertainment system, it is the control center for your terrestrial transport ship. Heating, air conditioning, navigation,satellite, AM/FM radio, Bluetooth, cameras and warnings, performance data, system settings, statistics...It's easier to steal the whole car on a roll back! If reset codes were still used, with battery drainers like this Honda, dealer's might be deluged with calls for reset codes, since that is the lifeblood of the system!

After much loss of sleep and too much caffeine, here are my thoughts.
Maybe these systems are powered at park, to keep whatever data has been collected at the ready when the vehicle is started. With all of the 'driver assist' systems I have no clue to how much data has been collected, or why, for each system. I do know that when the battery goes down, many system quickly boot but are still upset. It seems it takes a little driving to quiet then back down with the influx of replacement data.

So it must be assumed that this precious data is kept someplace in volatile RAM and is lost when the battery goes beyond a critical voltage. That may seem to be what's needed so it is always ready for the driver, but why not just off load it to some non-volatile storage when parked, then power down to zero. It could be quickly reloaded at startup again since I assume nothing has changed while parked.

I understand that non-volatile may have a life span of so many write cycles, so how much storage do you think is needed? A modern flash drive worth is probably way more than needed. So for a couple of dollars that's not any real issue. In the case of something like many start and stops in a day to extend the memory life, why not incorporate software timer so that if you are parked for maybe 48 hours or so it writes to the storage then shuts down. That might total a dozen writes or less in a week, compared to dozens a day. The data storage may possibly outlast the vehicle.

While ranting on, It's also understand that whatever time it would take these glorious driver dependent systems to boot on startup is completely unacceptable to the on-the-go driver. But consider that the time for them to initialize after a start is zero compared to waiting at the airport parking lot for a hot shot! The systems wake up time could be shortened if the systems started back up as the coded fob approaches, or the remote start was triggered. Then the driver will not be too frustrated waiting for their modern technology.

As a last thought, why not give the driver an option..
Keep the systems alive, start and go all with systems ready, and chance a dead battery.
Put them to sleep, wait a few seconds or so then go, with a small chance of a dead battery.
Sure seems like a SPDT toggle switch might work for this new "DIOC" (Driver Interactive Option Controller)!

Nope,I'm not an expert in these matters. Just a guy, long in the false tooth, short on patience yet and still in some questionable command of his senses None of these ideas is beyond the realm of PicBasic, so I am sure the auto industry programmers have had some of these thoughts before.
The question looms again... 'Why do all these various systems need to be powered when parked?"

Maybe it's a legal thing because some idiot will run into something because all his systems were not yet activated to compensate for his overwhelming incompetence! Or, maybe the vehicle in contact with the mother ship, sending unknown data from the non-sleeping systems..?

Thoughts!

PS:
I found out that at a Toyota dealer that they start the lot cars every few days, or they may not start either!
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:54 pm

hacklesup
I agree that the measured voltage drop across the fuse could be quite low, but any voltage drop would indicate a suspicious load. The value read is a relative indication, and probably could not be used to calculate the actual current. I also agree it's a possible shot in the dark, but better than waking the sleeping giant
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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Janitor Tzap
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Janitor Tzap » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:22 pm

Lenp,

I went out to Cargurus.com and found a thread about the "Battery Dead" Issue.
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussio ... _ds1000311

Some people have found a "kinda fix" for the problem. :roll:
My husband has been looking on Honda user forums. He found one today where one person's dealership found what was causing his. Once you have driven the car and shut it off there was something to do with emissions that wasn't shutting off and draining his battery. They haven't figured out how to fix it but he has a temporary work around. When he parks and shuts his car off he has to then start it and then it off again to stop it. I don't know if it is a fix for everyone with the problem but I'm going to try it if mine isn't fixed when I get it back. Another suggestion was a trickle charger.
Same thing happened to me about 2 weeks after I bought mine. Jumped it and made an appointment with the dealership because odd things were happening after that such as heat not working well, etc. They determined the battery was low and also told me the same thing someone else here said - it's a problem with one of the systems running a scan. A software fix should be out in a month - in the meantime, after turning the car off turn it on again immediately and then back off. That should prevent the scan from running. That was 4 days ago and so far it has started.....but I'm in agreement that we shouldn't be having to do this for a brand new Honda product.
Well it's looking more like a software bug, and Honda is requesting the owners to report the issue to them.
{You'll find a 1-800 number in the thread I linked too, so you can file your own complaint.}


Signed: Janitor Tzap

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Lenp
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Re: Technology Backfire?

Post by Lenp » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Our 2019 CRV failed to start only one time so far, and it has been parked several days straight without use. It seems that Honda is quite clueless and so far the Honda community is almost as bad. There is talk about software updates that don't exist, keeping a full tank of gas, or stopping then starting the engine to reset something.....
Maybe parking pointing North, so it can recharge from the earth's magnetic field will work. Only time, and the lemon laws will tell!
Len

“To invent, you need a good imagination and a big pile of junk.” (T. Edison)
"I must be on the way to success since I already have the junk". (Me)

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