Recording live music with a VCR

[RWA]

I would like to record live music using the my home VCR by connecting two microphones to the audio input jacks on the VCR. I could buy a mixer but most of the cheaper ones only have one mike input. What are the input levels for the audio jacks and what is the typical output level for a microphone? Is there a simple circuit I could build or other options.

[greg123]

Just so you know, if you record this way one mic will be panned left and the other right in your recording?<p>You are best off to use a cheap mixer.<p>greg

[rshayes]

Video Cassette Recorders are basically meant to record video signals. They have two mechanical motions, a helical scan across the tape and a linear motion of the tape. Both of these motions must be accurately synchronized to the video signal being recorded. If there is no video signal, the motors involved with these motions will do unpredictable things. Both the horizontal and vertical sync signals may be required, and these are part of the video signal. I suppose that a dummy video signal could be provided, but it seems like a lot of trouble to go to.

[L. Daniel Rosa]

Sounds like a lot of work. I'm not sure you'll get a better quality recording then your boom box can give you- and it'll use common cassettes. Anotherr option is your computer. If you have a sound card and a cd burner then your hardware is covered. There's plenty software out there to take care of the rest (I think I have a demo version of something here). Even if you don't have a CD-W, you might fing someone you can email an MP3 to who'll burn a CD and send it to you for cost in materials and stamps (a buck should cover this).

[jollyrgr]

Don't be discuraged from using a VCR to record music. Back when I worked in radio we would use a HiFi VCR in SLP mode to record sporting events for later playback. And we only recorded audio. True, some VCRs do not record very well unless there is a video signal.<p>Here are some things to try IF your VCR has problems recording only HiFi audio:<p>1) Connect a video source to the VIDEO INPUT (This WILL work every time but may not be practical.)<p>2) Connect the VIDEO OUT from the VCR to the VIDEO IN. Yes, this can produce a "video feedback" condition but may work for you.<p>3) As in all cases, check the manual. There may be a setting for recording only audio. This was the case with an old Fisher VCR I had. There was a SWITCH setting (this VCR was from the pre on screen menu days) that allowed you to record:
TUNER
TUNER with EXTERNAL AUDIO
EXTERNAL VIDEO and AUDIO
EXTERNAL AUDIO ONLY<p>In the last mode the VCR generated a "black" video screen. If you recorded in the EXTERNAL VIDEO and AUDIO mode without an externa video signal, the tape did not play back correctly. <p>If these do not help, there is one more thought you could do. You could get a small video camera and use its signal output to provide a video source. If you don't care about the camera you could place it inside the VCR and run an RCA jack out to the back. Power could be obtained from right inside the VCR itself. Thus the video camera would be focused on the dark insides of the VCR but if all you care about is the audio, who cares what the camera sees.<p>But you asked some other questions. Most microphones put out voltages in the millivolt range. The LINE IN on a VCR requires 1 Volt Peak to Peak. So you need a mixer with a preamp (line and microphone outputs). You said "most of the cheaper ones only have one mike input." That is true if you are recording multiple LINE devices and only have one microphone. There are plenty of "mic mixers" out there. But if you cannot find one you will need a microphone preamp. If you want to build one, try these:<p>http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit_ar ... icamp.html<p>
http://www.nomad.ee/micros/preamp1.html
(Note the SCHEMATICS link on this page)<p>http://www.geocities.com/ferocious_1999 ... eamp2.html<p>
But to save time and money, what you really want is a mic mixer like the SHURE M268. This device will take inputs for both HI and LOW impediance microphones and outputs to a MIC level output or a standard LINE LEVEL output. Since this is a mono mixer, all you need is a Y adapter and connect the mic signal to both the left and right inputs.<p>I have seen these sell used for about $25.

[RWA]

What I was planing to do is to improve the sound and the video quality on the tape. In the past I have recorded this 27-piece community band on my cheap VHS-C camcorder. Then copied from the camera to my VCR so that it could shown on the public access channel. The camera only records in mono with no external mike jack. What ends up on air is a second-generation tape. My VCR is a hifi model. I have been told that the sound is recorded(hifi model)on the same helical track as the video signal and is capable of very high quality sound and records in stereo. Of course spending more money can solve all this. The computer route is interesting. I have a sound card and a CD burner. What type of software do I need?

[grant fair]

To provide a reliable source of a video signal in order to use your VCR to record audio, try this website:<p>http://www.elmelectronics.com/<p>They make a PIC which provides a NTSC video signal, which is just what you need. Look for the ELM304. All you need to add is a 3.58 Mhz crystal, 2 27 pf caps, and 4 resistors and you are in business.<p>Grant

[L. Daniel Rosa]

The CD burner I purchased came with demo version software (Roxio) that alows me to put .wav files on a CD for a stereo to play, but no other format for the demo version. A neighbor of mine got demo software with his (Nero) that allows conversion between .wav and .mp3 for a limited number of files, and will also rip from an audio CD. The Nero software requires removal and reinstallation with a new user name when it converts a certain number of files.<p>(added) The Nero software can also generate a file from the "line in" of your sound card.<p>The software is demo version that came with CD burner software capable of copying it, so I don't think copyright is a problem here. I'll see about making another copy if you want it.<p>[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: L. Daniel Rosa ]</p>

[bwts]

I use a PC for all my recording nowadays + I highly recommend Sonic Foundry's Sound Forge (it allows a great deal of editing fading in/out, setting recording levels, etc). If ur going 2 go down the PC route make sure u have a large hard drive.<p>B)<p>[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Mr Bwtz ]</p>

[RWA]

Thanks Jolly Roger, Grant Fair, L Daniel Rosa and others for all the advice. I looked on e-bay for mike mixers. It was kind of overwelming. Some of the mixers have three pin connectors for the mike inputs. I have a cheap Radio Shack mike with a ¼” plug. Will a sure M268 be compatible with this? Software that will allow me to record on my computer, yes I could sure use that. I am recording from the balcony of a church, so I might not want to drag the computer up there. How ever I would like to transfer some music from a tape recorder to CD via the computer. I have a sound card with a “mike” labeled input. The tape recorder is a cheap hand held unit with only an ear phone output. A friend said that I could hook the two together. I know it sounds lame, transferring a low quality sound to a CD but it is for a music lesson. The CD’s ability to loop the same passage over and over again is what I am after. So the question is what voltage is my sound card expecting and how do I connect a mike, an earphone output or the audio out from a VCR to it?

[jollyrgr]

Let's take your questions one by one. <p>Yes, eBay can be overwhelming, if you are not familiar with what you are looking for. The "three pin" as you call them are called XLR connectors (pronounced by each letter as if you spelled out X, L, R.) These are "low impedance" microphones. The M268 has quarter (1/4") inch jacks for your "high impedance" type microphones and should work just fine. But as you stated eBay can overwhelm you. That being the case, stick with a local shop that will allow you to try the unit. Strange as it sounds, you might try a guitar/music store for a mixer.<p>On many computers there are multiple jacks; most have four female 1/8" jacks plus a game controller input. If you are lucky, these are labeled in plain English (rare). Check the soundcard icons and colors. The "arrow pointing away from the jack" means LINE OUT. This is standard line level to go to an amp or amplified speakers, or the AUDIO IN of a TV, VCR, or other home consumer device. This jack is "usually" GREEN. The arrow pointing to the jack is LINE IN for the soundcard. Many sound cards have this jack. It allows you to plug in a mini 1/8" plug and put STEREO sound into your computer. This jack is "usually" BLUE. In your case you are recording mono so you would connect BOTH right and left channels to the mixer or mono tape recorder. The easiest way to do this is to get a STEREO 1/8" plug to RCA male cable to go to the sound card. Then take a two female RCA cable to one male RCA adapter to the LINE OUT of the mixer. In the case of the tape recorder with the earphone jack, you would need a MONO 1/8" male to two RCA female adapter (so that you could mate it with the "soundcard" cable. (There is more later about the headphone/earphone jack).<p>A MIC or SPEAKER icon on the sound card is obvious. But most soundcards do not have speaker out anymore; all they have is "low level" line out. MIC jacks are RED or PINK.<p>You MAY see a YELLOW connector. This is for DIGITAL audio out. Avoid this for your purposes.
(NOTE: Color code based on SOUNDBLASTER standard.)<p>Software can be found quite cheap or free to do simple recordings. With some "tricks" you can make SOUND RECORDER (it comes with Windows from version 3.x and on) record until you fill up your hard drive. Hard drive space is the big problem. MP3s are nice because they run about one megabyte of disk space per minute for "CD QUALITY" sound. If you record at the same sample rate as a real CD, you are looking at about 10 Megabytes for EACH minute of sound (assuming stereo recording). <p>Using a similar patch cable as I describe earlier, you could easily connect your "cheap" tape recorder to your computer. I doubt that you could do this easily with a single cable (unless you home brew it). Yes the cable probably exists but there is a easy way to save on "proprietary" cables by getting a few "standard" cables. You would connect a MONO 1/8" plug to female RCA Y adapter to the tape recorder ear phone jack and the stereo miniplug to male Y cable then connect these to cables together. (See the pattern here? Get one cable for the sound card and adapters to mate to it and whatever source you have.) <p>As far as your "cheap" tape recorder is concerned, it probably sounds great but the SPEAKER sucks. I have used "Walkman" cassette players on large sound systems and they sound great. Even the mono "note taker" ones sound pretty good connected to a sound system. And I have recorded records, cassettes, microphones, radios, etc. onto computer hard drive and burned them to CD. So I for one do not think this as being "lame".<p>You asked <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> So the question is what voltage is my sound card expecting and how do I connect a mike, an earphone output or the audio out from a VCR to it? <hr></blockquote><p>It is quite simple to do once you have the cables and know what you are doing. I would HIGHLY suggest that you stay away from the MIC input of the soundcard for several reasons. The MIC input has a small DC bias voltage that is used to power the ELECTRETE style microphones that are the defacto standard with PCs. Plus MIC level is so low you would probably over drive it with anything you connect to it besides a microphone. <p>Reminder:
GREEN: LINE OUT
BLUE: AUX or LINE IN
RED: MICROPHONE
YELLOW: DIGITAL
(Soundblaster "standards". Check your card to be sure!!!!!)<p>So now what? Connect the STEREO 1/8" mini plug to RCA MALE cable to the BLUE jack on the soundcard. Next, use a suitable adapter to mate with the cassette player earphone jack. Some of these players have an AUX OUT. If you are so lucky, use that and forget about the earphone jack. If not, turn the volume all the way down on the cassette player. Connect the cable from soundcard to the tape player using a suitable cable or combination of cables. Before continuing test your computer audio by playing some sound file to confirm SOUND OUT is working and adjust for a normal listening level. Go to your SPEAKER ICON in the SYS TRAY of your computer. Double click it. A PLAY control will come up.
(The next few steps will vary, depending on OS version)
Click the OPTIONS pull down menu and select PROPERTIES. Click the RECORD selection. Find LINE IN and be sure it is enabled or not muted. (If needed, add to the MIXER control by selecting LINE IN under the SHOW VOLUME CONTROLS window.) Click OK and the PLAY MIXER should now be a RECORD MIXER. Depending on OS version the controls differ. Select LINE-IN and turn up the control about all the way. Mute the other controls by either unselecting them or turning them all the way down. With a cassette with known audio inserted into the player, press play. Slowly turn up the volume control. When the sound starts coming in at a reasonable volume, STOP! Do not raise the volume too high or distortion or even damage can happen to your soundcard. DO NOT turn up the volume on the cassette player too high! <p>If all goes well, you will hear the sound from your cassette player coming out of your computer sound system. Since you can do this you can record sounds on your computer!<p>Now how do you record to you computer? Buy or download a recording package. In some cases you may already have softare from your soundcard or other package. I will not go into what software package to buy or obtain as FREEWARE. I'll leave that to someone else.<p>Microsoft products come with a sound recording program (called apropriately enough) SOUND RECORDER. There is ONE big limitation with this program; it only lets you record one minute worth of audio; sort of. Now I will reveal my "trick" I spoke of earlier. Turn down all of the controls on the RECORD CONTROL settings (I explained how to find these controls earlier.) Bring up SOUND RECORDER (usually found under the PROGRAMS heading in MULTIMEDIA or ENTERTAINMENT and possibly under ACCESSORIES. Use Windows HELP to locate this program. Hit RECORD and record one minute of silence. Click FILES PROPERTIES. Click the CONVERT NOW button. For CD quality sound, pick FORMAT: PCM ATTRIBUTES: 44,100 16bit STEREO. Click OK until you get back to the SOUND RECORDER program. Click FILE > SAVE AS. Give this file a name of SILENT.WAV and save where you want. Here is where we "trick" the sound recording software. Under EDIT choose INSERT FILE. Pick the name you just saved, SILENT.WAV. You have now extended the file time to two minuts. Click FILE > SAVE. You now have a two minute silent wave file saved! Click EDIT > INSERT FILE. Find the SILENT.WAV file and insert it. Save this file again. Repeat the process until you get a file with as much length as you think you will need. Once done you SHOULD protect this file. Go to this file in WINDOWS EXPLORER or navigate to it though MY COMPUTER. Right click on this file and choose properties. Click READ ONLY. This will prevent you from accidentally over writing the long silent file. (Burning this file to CD as a DATA file is not a bad idea either.) Now when you want to record something long, you open SOUND RECORDER and use it to open the SILENT.WAV file. Immediately do a SAVE AS and give a filename to reflect what you are about to record. (This further prevents you from accidentally saving over the SILENT.WAV file. But now you have TWO huge files on your hard drive. Remember the HINT about using a CD-R to store the SILENT.WAV?<p>This is long and only covers PART of what you need to do. Many people have web pages much longer than my posting to cover this subject. Good luck.