BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

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frhrwa
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by frhrwa » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:31 am

will give that a shot.. good ideas come on Fridays.. ha..
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by frhrwa » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:36 am

I just ran a search on the electric foggers, seems someone somewhere is building the BURGESS BUG KILLER 960, since Amazon and a few others, including Fountainhead Group are selling them.. if so, who is manufacturing and how do you find this out..
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by frhrwa » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:51 am

dacflyer wrote:here is another idea... find another outfit that makes such a tool...contact them or look online and see if they have a parts break down.. i am sure they are all the just about the same..
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/42539 ... ostat.html
sent email to these folks, not sure if they will respond for 2 units.. rather than 5000..
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by dacflyer » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:01 am

ya, usually they will sell you a few SAMPLES
i have delt with that site, and have bought samples before..

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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by avionicsmaster1958 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:14 am

Hmmmm. After reading your post regarding temperature I think you're right in that is does heat to 500F and then opens and closes around 450F. Entrusted with that info I don't see anything that gets that hot.

I'm thinking you may be SOL.

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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by Edd » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:13 pm

.



Most Honorable and Esteemed . . . . . .frhrwca

( And you really, really ought to look into buying a few extra vowels, as that long consonant string of frhrwc,
with that sole a vowel on its end, is making it s o o o o o o difficult to pronounce.)


Looks like you were the only post being left high and dry on solving your problem . . . . .so, HERE I am . . . .Image






I was just making my ANNUAL sabbatical, to see what few new posts have been added to the forum in the interim.

On examining the Burgess 960 blow up drawing , it seems like the foggers heater element ( item #6) is just looking a bit akin
to the casing of a lawnmowers mufflers pressed steel housing with its central hollow exhaust /hole.

Image


Of course, with your fogger unit differing, in its having internal nichrome coils / or Calrod heating elements for creating the high heat needed for the liquids fog generation.
Plus, its also having two 180 degree opposed connector wires / rods coming out to then electrically tie into the wiring of the fogger body.
I would further expect the physical mounting of your "problem child" in thermal contact with metal of the heating element.
Your given part numbers remind me of the old numbering system that Therm-o-disc used to use, as the series 36T prefix.
Unless you were reading in a cramped up or upside conditions . . . . or you were dyslexic and coming out with a 63T prefix ?

30 + years ago, I was quite savvy on ALL of the thermal snap disc type of switches, but I now see that KLIXON no longer has Texas Instruments as its sugar daddy, and that Honeywell has intermarried with Elmwood and Emerson Electric.
A new kid on the block to me is Selco, but they seem to be priced lowest, as I am finding Honeywell and others being priced up in the 40-60 dollar range for SOME of their ceramic housed, high temp units.

Aside:

Of course, I can probably guesstimate that aspect to you.
On taking a breakdown of a 75 dollar pricing of a unit and that is breaking down as being $5 for the product value and $70 for paying for that units litigational and product liability insurance.
Since these units are used in hair driers, heating elements, furnaces, toaster ovens , etc.
However some of those units are backed up with a one shot thermal fuse. .


I feel that you were finding your two units as having their heating elements being OK, but with failure of only the units thermal cut offs.
In consideration of the inherent nature and the design aspects of a fogger heater , along with your cryptic numbers series given, I am seeing the 500 as being for a 500F cut off temperature and then with the other 50, being indicative of the hysterisis of the temperature, in which case the unit resets at 50 degrees down, at 450 F and then starts its build up again to that higher 500 degree threshold again . . . ad nauseum.

I feel that since you CAN get new replacement parts for your units, that would be the easiest repair out.
Consult this Allied radio catalog page link below:

----------> HOT LINK . . . . . . . . . . http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.as ... geNum=1557<----------

Then you run down its listings until you find the Selco part numberORA-500-QC.
That unit installed, would then have your fogger heater unit constant cycling between 500F and 420F, which should be close enough, with those doubled + and - 20 degree temp differential error specs.

Myself . . . . if my problem to solve . . . . if it actually DOES even present itself as a problem, would be to insert a thin mica sheet(s) between the thermal switches sensor plate and the heated area that it is mounted onto. That would then factor in a "thermal skew" to the sensor and make it be creating a bit higher up switching range . . . .e.g. on at 530F and off at 450F, etc.
A use of my laser thermometer, shot at the housing, would let me confirm or make adjustment of thermal separation (mica shims)accordingly.
Overall heat regulation should be quite satisfactory, as the metal mass of that heater housing is creating one quite stable " thermal flywheel ."

With you having had TWO switches failing already, you can certainly expect the designer having been lax in his parts selection.
The one above, that I gave you, was the max in the power ratings being available.
Since you did not give the heater current consumption, see what it is and then benchmark it against the new units 15 amp current draw that you are now having available.

TECHNICAL ASIDE:

Two other "outboard " options / solutions would be to select an "overly durable" (1000 degree rated) thermal sensor and mount it to the heater housing and route its 2 conductor teflon wiring to control electronics, consisting of a window comparator feeding its output into a solid state relay to control the foggers heater element.That lets you set upper and lower limits as to wherever you want them.

The other method would be one wherin I have used two 555 timers that had the first one used as an adjustable variable frequency oscillator that would then feed into the second unit configured as a one shot.
The one shot then fed a solid state relay to switch power to a load. (The fogger heater, in this case.)
If one then varies the values of adjustments of those two parameters (frequency and ON time) , it is possible to set different average power levels and end up, getting an averaged temperature of 500F, being your goal..
A design technique of using pulsed power, for power averaging, just like we now use on radars and microwave ovens
With the inherent "thermal flywheel" of the heaters metal housing, you will be surprised how well it works, without its even having any thermal feed back to the circuitry.

Guess that I had better stop now and let you continue further investigating of your units . . .BTW . . . I would be further interested in the current pull specified on that unit .


73's de Edd


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avionicsmaster1958
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by avionicsmaster1958 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:14 am

Would this part from Allied work for you? There are some options in the catalog other than this but this looks the closest to what you want.

70098830 ORA-500-QCV50 Close on Rise 500 ±20 450 ±20 Rotating Bracket 14.17

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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by frhrwa » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:13 am

wow.. a lot of info, I'm going to order 2each of the number ORA-500-QC and the ORA-500-QVC50 and try both.. will let you know the results as soon as I figure out how to order from these guys.. thanks again

do you have a schematic for building these control units your talking about? or how much would you want to build a couple of them? (Two other "outboard " options / solutions would be to select an "overly durable" (1000 degree rated) thermal sensor and mount it to the heater housing and route its 2 conductor teflon wiring to control electronics, consisting of a window comparator feeding its output into a solid state relay to control the foggers heater element.That lets you set upper and lower limits as to wherever you want them.

The other method would be one wherin I have used two 555 timers that had the first one used as an adjustable variable frequency oscillator that would then feed into the second unit configured as a one shot.
The one shot then fed a solid state relay to switch power to a load. (The fogger heater, in this case.)
If one then varies the values of adjustments of those two parameters (frequency and ON time) , it is possible to set different average power levels and end up, getting an averaged temperature of 500F, being your goal..
A design technique of using pulsed power, for power averaging, just like we now use on radars and microwave ovens
With the inherent "thermal flywheel" of the heaters metal housing, you will be surprised how well it works, without its even having any thermal feed back to the circuitry.



I ordered a couple of the units you mentioned to try in the meantime.. no specs on the case as to current draw tho.... oh, by the way, the name frhrwa is from my previous work in the Islands up north.. Friday Harbor.. , frhr (Friday harbor) WA (Wayne Abercrombie) the guys in Gig Harbor were GH and so on.. I just kept it when I left since everyone knew me by frhrwa.. changed the @.....com tho..
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by Edd » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:04 pm

.

Sir . . . . . .frhrwca:



No need of the other techiques that I opted for, only, in case of a non obtainamus situation of that thermal cutout, also no need for four of those units, just two, unless you are thinking of future back-up spares.

When I researched Allied catalog and that page given that lists the Selco part number ORA-500-QC, it is showing the ORA-500-QCV50 just below it as being a NORMALLY OPEN switching unit, which closes at 500 F, which you couldn't use at all, without using some additional add on reversal of action circuitry ***.

Otherwise, I knew that last ORA-500-QCV50 unit would fit your thermal specs, spot on.

Then I saw our esteemed avionicsmaster1958 . . . (nkotb to me ). . . . is coming back with that last part number of ORA-500-QCV50 and then quoting his referencing of:

" 70098830 ORA-500-QCV50 Close on Rise 500 ±20 450 ±20 Rotating Bracket 14.17 "

With that statement that was being submitted, ALSO giving that central "Close on Rise " info .

Now, with this unit being wired in series with the heating element , the unit needs to be having a switch action of " Open on Rise " which would be a Normally Closed switching action, that then Opens upon hitting that 500F threshold.Otherwise, initial heating would never be started.

So now, time to go to get THE answer, at the Selco home site.
(And do note that they price their purchase in quantity of one units at GOBS more of "munny" and having a minimum order of $50.)

However, Allied is letting you cruise by in your getting only ONE unit at a multiple unit pricing break.
Now, in referencing to the Selco products catalog, which is at:
See:

http://catalog.selcoproducts.com/asset/ ... talog1.pdf

Refer to its page 10.

There we see that ORA and CRA prefixes are being assigned, with O meaning having a CLOSED contact action, until rising and hitting the temp threshold, or C meaning having an OPEN contact until rising and hitting the 500F temp threshold.

If you then refer to that ORA-500-QCV50 you will see its being an Open on rise unit as its ORA prefix indicates.
BUT with the Allied catalog being in ERROR with it designating the unit being of a "Close on Rise " category.

Sooooo . . . . . . just get your order off to Allied for 2 (or 4) of those units ORA-500-QCV50, if it is being mechanically compatible, as we never discussed your units physical aspects.

At Allied I only see a minimum order limit as ONLY being expressed as being towards COD orders, of $50, which should not apply to you..

Seems like their world headquarters is but a mere 25 miles from me.

Thasssit.

73's de Edd


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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by avionicsmaster1958 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:12 pm

I'm thinking I looked at the datasheet to make sure it was open on rise and didn't catch the error in the catalog.

I, through my company, order from them often but I don't see how much shipping costs or minimum order quantity. So I can't help you there but I suspect you could go to almost any electronic parts store and they could order it for you on their next shipment. Might take a couple of days or a week but you'd probably get it sans shipping costs and minimum order number.

Just a thought.

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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by frhrwa » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:06 pm

got another question, when these units get here, do I need to "spot" weld the wire on the terminals? Solder would obviously melt wouldn't it? or is there an alternative connection method that works? maybe silver solder? thanks for all of the brain waves you guys are putting into this project.. I DO appreciate it!.. of course, some of it I have to read three times to grasp the entire message.. ha ha. wayne
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by Edd » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:23 pm

.


Sir . . . . . .frhrwca:

Wasn't your original thermal switches wiring interfacing, utilizing two of these types of slide on connectors ?


Image

If not, that is what the new Selco tandem male terminals are being geared towards.


Aside:
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Ex . . . . Foxy 86's in Korea . . .F105 "THUDS" in VN and . . . a final f16 thunderjockey . . ->-

73's de Edd


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giving the rich bigger meals
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by frhrwa » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:51 pm

nope.. mine were what looked like spot welded to the terminals..
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by Edd » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:30 pm

.



Sir . . . . . .frhrwca:

Just a few further thoughts then:
If the involved two interconnecting wires coming to the thermoswitch unit were stranded . . . (I'm expecting, as being so.)
I would use that same type of crimp connector as I had shown, mainly, to assure that each and every potential straggling little strand was bundled and compressed up within that connectors sleeve.

Then, if you want an additional, fully thermally secure, third and fourth degrees of connectivity, make two equi spaced out spot welds down in that CHANNEL present between the female connectors side wraparound folds.(They were providing the first two degrees of compressive / frictional contact continuity.)

I have one local "mom and pop" sheet metal fabrication shop, that I have known forever, and would cull thru their aluminum cut off scraps to get myself materiel for further bending into custom electronic chassis or sometimes just a flat panel.

They gave me free run of use of their sheet metal working equipment, if no employee had it in use.

All inclusive of that, was their big console spot welder with its angled copper tiplets . . . . and its foot pedal that compressed the tiplet electrodes and started the timed out welding power burst . . . . . . its a' looka like a' 'dis:


Image

All that they asked in return on that units use, was that if I developed a pit /or/ flat on the copper tiplets ends , that I reshape them into rounded domes with the large Nicholson mill file stored nearby. SUCH a deal . . . already !

I just happened to notice on my last Harboring Freightliners catalog that, if a person could justify its amount of use versus pricing, that they can get a portable 60 ampere burst unit for a buck seventy five.
That unit certainly would meet all of my light duty electrical / electronics needs, IF I didn't have my other mentioned accessibility.
Harboring Freightliners porta unit: . . . . . .
Image
Or, just see if you can find a situation like mine in YOUR town and use their unit.


73's de Edd


Fact :
Both the Republicans and Democrats share one thing in common - our tax dollars.
Now . . . in order to close the budget deficit . . . we need to tax 4 out of every 3 Americans.
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Re: BURGESS BUG KILLER 960

Post by Robert Reed » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:30 pm

EDD-
I have a question. Having used spot welders many times for chassis construction, they had one critical point. That was the tip temperature. This was an adjustment on the machine itself and was quite critical and sensitive as to type of metal,thickness and heat conductivity. It took some juggling to get it right,but from that point on let the work begin. I did not notice any such adjustment from your photo, and was wondering if you saw one from another angle. Also was your "buck seventy five" slang for$175?

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