Irritant venting

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philba
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by philba » Tue May 17, 2005 9:23 am

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chris Smith:
I think most here do their best with what they have, and English shouldn’t be a judgment on their interest in science, a separate subject of learning all together. <p>I know I didn’t give a hoot for English in HS, as it detracted from my life and interests in life, which happened to be science. <p>Lets not toss out the baby with the bath water, and give them all a chance.<hr></blockquote><p>So, are you saying that one shouldn't take the time to get the spelling and grammar correct as well as make sure the writing is clear?? That sloppiness is ok? Interesting position, Chris. <p>I already know your position on conciseness. <p>Phil

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dr_when
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by dr_when » Tue May 17, 2005 10:48 am

Sheesh!<p>When did they start spelling grammar with two "a's"? In Southern California (a place in which I am glad I no longer live) we used to spell it: "grammer".<p>[ May 17, 2005: Message edited by: dr_when ]</p>
"Who is John Galt?"

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Re: Irritant venting

Post by Ron H » Tue May 17, 2005 11:33 am

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dr_when:
Sheesh!<p>When did they start spelling grammar with two "a's"? In Southern California (a place in which I am glad I no longer live) we used to spell it: "grammer".<p>[ May 17, 2005: Message edited by: dr_when ]<hr></blockquote>
According to these guys, circa 1176 AD.<p>[ May 17, 2005: Message edited by: RonH ]</p>

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Chris Smith
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by Chris Smith » Tue May 17, 2005 4:47 pm

“Some of us have a passion for precision which has no Freudian implications. We just like to be sure we understand something and can convey that understanding with exactitude”<p>
Terri <p>Become a English teacher, this is a science class where English details don’t matter nearly as much with engineers who are concentrating on substance and not the form. We even scribble!

No one said you cant spell perfect, the retentive behavior refers to trying to make others become as perfect as you, [in english] or how you want others to be. <p>That’s a Freudian concept that doesn’t disappear just because you want it to, its just a fact. <p>Its called “Behavior”.<p>In the world of engineers only annoying English teachers want the English to be perfect, the rest of us just punt. <p>The other name for it is OCD or OCB. Its not a bad thing, it just drives other people nuts.<p>As a engineer I normally work with my mind and my hands. File work can be sorted out for those who read my concepts if need be, and by those who understand them. <p>I don’t publish [except for a minor occasion] so any Secretary can sort out the rest. <p>But then I don’t have paper work any more, and paper work never did get in my way in the first place, because it was always the least important part of my job.<p> Some people who call them self engineers are really just paper or theoretical jockeys like most of the white collar world, while the other kind of engineer rolls up their sleeves and gets down and dirty. <p>I do both mechanical and electronics, and the key board typing does the rest. The notion that my writing is so bad that no one would hire me is funny, as all of you here have had no problem getting my message, bad grammar, spelling and all.<p>[ May 17, 2005: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</p>

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sofaspud
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by sofaspud » Tue May 17, 2005 4:59 pm

I think grammarians should adopt 10%, 5%, and precision 1% standardized tolerance ratings.
Say watt?

terri
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by terri » Tue May 17, 2005 5:06 pm

sofaspud: :) !<p>-----------------<p>"cant spell perfect"
=
"can't spell perfectly"<p>qed<p>There are regionalisms, such as "potatoe" for "potato." I wasn't aware of the "grammer" regionalism. I occasionally use "y'all" like a Texan for the simple reason that english has no plural "you."<p>I mentioned before in respect to one of our non-native english posters that I was quite forgiving of a lot of mistakes.<p>But I have a hard time with folks who defend poor english just for the sake of it.<p>Period. Control-Z.<p>[ May 17, 2005: Message edited by: terri ]</p>
terri wd0edw

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Re: Irritant venting

Post by ian » Tue May 17, 2005 5:37 pm

Man o man, English, or language, is a science. I find it comical someone could be soooo good at electronics, and the associated precision that goes with it, and have no appreciation for the precision of words.
A good writer know what I'm talking about. To be a good communicator you need to use words with precision and accuracy. I think good communication is important, especially if you want to accomplish something great with many people, such as......., say........ building a national infra-structure of solar cells.
Surely if you wanted to accomplish such a task you'd need to be an excellent communicator.

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sofaspud
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by sofaspud » Tue May 17, 2005 5:46 pm

It didn't occur to me during my attempt at humor, but there is already a "rating" system in place. There are rules for formal writing, informal writing, business writing, etc. Usage for each situation is important. There are rules for writing a language just like there are rules for mathematics, blueprints, schematics, scientific notation, and so on. All for a reason.
Perhaps most importantly, virtually every writing class teaches that the writer should write for the reader.

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Re: Irritant venting

Post by rshayes » Tue May 17, 2005 6:07 pm

English is exceptionally tolerant of inaccurate grammar. In most of the romance languages, such as Spanish, French, and Italian, the verbs are very regular and suffixes are used to indicate the subject of the sentence as well as the time that the sentence describes. The same verb root may have thirty or forty different meanings, depending on a few letters added to the end of the verb.<p>Some languages, such as German and Latin, change the nouns to indicate if the noun is a subject of the sentence or an object.<p>Spanish has the tilde. Leave it off and you have a different word with an entirely different pronunciation and meaning.<p>French uses a great number of contractions, so I suspect that a missing or extra apostrophe can cause a great deal of misunderstanding.<p>Chinese has several meanings for each symbol. An error in a brush stroke may obscure the meaning entirely.<p>English often has several words for each meaning. Which one you use can convey different shades of meaning from refined to coarse. For example, "Ladies glow, women perspire, and men sweat".<p>Yes you can use statements such as, "Me Tarzan, you Jane", and they will be understood. There will be communication. However, you will also communicate that you were happily swinging through the trees in Africa only yesterday. If you wish to communicate ignorance, then by all means use poor spelling, grammar, and sentence structure.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by Chris Smith » Tue May 17, 2005 6:36 pm

Here is a quiz for all you English teachers out there dabbling in science.<p>Which is more important content or form?<p>What is a pronoun, and how is it used, and why should we learn these rules?<p>Why do you need to know what a pronoun is, a noun, or a verb, in science?<p>Wouldn’t speech just be easier, with out knowing the rules? Works for me.<p>Does poor spelling exclude you from communication with others? <p>Only if you cant be understood.<p>Will the average understanding of the English language preclude you from a job in science if you’re a brilliant engineer, where math and physics are needed and writing is not? <p>Ask the Chinese and Indians, they have all YOUR jobs! <p>
OR <p>What is the resonant frequency of the hydrogen atom described in the minimal amount of words?<p>Enter it into a calculator.<p>Describe it in three letters or less on paper, with three numbers and the proper digits. <p>Real Tough English?<p>Why is this important to the modern world in two words or less?

Microwave oven.<p>
The point here is all the English in the world doesn’t help you in science unless you cant read.<p>Poor penmanship, grammar and literacy is a draw back, but not a complete impedance to science.<p> Literacy is better than no literacy, expanding your word base and knowledge is far more important than grammar and punctuation, spelling is nice but not critical in science unless you cant be understood, and knowledge of physics and your trade still rules over learning proper English, pronouns and all. <p>Yes, get the best education you can including English but, Perfect English is not a absolute requirement in life, not for a job search, or for the expansion of your mind. <p>Nobody is perfect, so learn what its important to you first and learn the rest as you go. <p>You never stop learning, unless your dead.<p>Don’t let your inability in one subject, stunt your growth in another area of your interest.<p> But learn all you can in all subjects.

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sofaspud
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by sofaspud » Tue May 17, 2005 8:21 pm

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chris Smith:
Which is more important content or form?<hr></blockquote><p>I believe the point of this thread's origin was to point out that these two are not independent attributes, but rather are inextricably linked.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by Chris Smith » Tue May 17, 2005 9:23 pm

In so many variable degrees.........<p>The point I make is which side of the scale is tipped heavy, Science, or English.<p>I know which I find more attractive, behavioral science V.S. the physical science.<p>But eat your wheeties, and learn all sorts of new words kiddies! It matters!

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sofaspud
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by sofaspud » Tue May 17, 2005 10:13 pm

And political science trumps them both?

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Chris Smith
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by Chris Smith » Tue May 17, 2005 10:20 pm

Political science, is a oxymoron.
It was invented in the abattoir waiting room! Swept from the floors of congress?<p>Ian, you just blew your cause out the window?<p>"A good writer know what I'm talking about" [typo?]<p>But I will still will listen to you seeeeriously any way, about science that is, just not about any english whines, ....French red whines perhaps, but even less!<p>[ May 17, 2005: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</p>

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sofaspud
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Re: Irritant venting

Post by sofaspud » Wed May 18, 2005 1:53 am

I thought that the form wasn't as important as the content? My question was easily understood, yet ignored (for more spaced-out ranting). Whatever the language, however it's used, communication is impossible...... :roll:

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