National Debt

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ian
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National Debt

Post by ian » Thu May 12, 2005 1:47 pm

A few things have been said about national debt but what most people miss is the national equity.
What about all that infrastructure?, what about houses, roads, planes, airports....... aren't they worth something? Why should one generation pay for something that will last for decades?
Everyone who has a house has a mortgage, why shouldn't the nation have a mortgage of an equity base of trillions of dollars?

cato
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Re: National Debt

Post by cato » Thu May 12, 2005 3:01 pm

Equity has to do with your ability to sell something. So, unless someones gonna buy the Brooklyn Bridge.... equity doesn't really apply. As for the rest, of your point, most if not all public works ARE financed by issuing bonds (20 year and longer).... so, the next generation does pay. And by the way, I wish I90 would last 20 years. They seem to rebuild the damn thing every spring. (sorry, I'm about to log off and head into orange barrel inspired traffic)

peter-f
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Re: National Debt

Post by peter-f » Thu May 12, 2005 4:49 pm

well- sort of...
The Bklyn Br. was (originally) a toll bridge - so someone paid for it.
Houses aren't infrastructure (infra = BETWEEN;
infrastructure is between buildings: roads, pipes, electric grid... Buildings don't count)
Planes are Capital goods... (airports: not)<p>If you can't even define your assets, how can you argue the merits of how they're financed.<p>Then, there are those who say buting a car is an "investment"!<p>I, for one, would not argue the merits of national debt for quality infrastructure. (Boston's 'big dig' may lose out on those terms.)<p>What is frightening to me is the amount of debt for "Operating expenses"; i.e., ongoing wartime operations, "tax relief", "corporate welfare" and other favors to the well heeled, and well connected.

wolfcreek
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Re: National Debt

Post by wolfcreek » Thu May 12, 2005 6:02 pm

The real scary part is that about 55% of the budget is tranfer payments to things such as social security, welfare, etc and growing. The defense dept get a relatively small piece of the pie for waht they are required to accomplish. In the 2004 budget the post office got between 1/4 and 1/3 what the defense dept gets. Yet my mail is never delivered on time. <p>We need a balanced budget amendment and that is the only thing that can save us. Unfortunately groups like AARP would never allow it to happen. They would prefer to destroy the future to pay for their constituents.<p>[ May 12, 2005: Message edited by: wolfcreek ]</p>

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Joseph
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Re: National Debt

Post by Joseph » Fri May 13, 2005 9:49 am

Something which may reduce the value of infrastructure is a shift in what society considers important. For example, right now, we still have almost an addiction to high mobility. It is though everyone feels the need to aways be on-the-go to keep them distracted from taking a critical look at the present world reality.<p>Once social priorities revert back to a more realistic level, things like stadiums where large numbers of people gather and 10 lane highways may be obsolete. (Edited from 6 lane highways. Six is not unreasonable, I'd say.)<p>[ May 13, 2005: Message edited by: Joseph ]</p>

Will
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Re: National Debt

Post by Will » Fri May 13, 2005 10:22 am

. . . scary part is 55% to things like Social Security . . . . AARP would ruin the future to take care of their constituents . . . .
More twisted statistics. Why shouldn't a large percentage go to Soc Sec. In 2003 $688 Bn was collected as Soc Sec Tax - only $509 Bn was paid out in benefits . . . who is draining who ? Social Security transactions should not be in the budget . . . because they distort the facts. Democrats keep rubbing it in that, during the Clinton era . . a surplus was actually produced - it never was. The only surplus recorded was in the excess of SS Tax collections over benefits. From 1996 to 2000 the so-called Soc Sec Trust Fubd grew from $ 598 Bn to $ 893 Bn i.e. a surplus of $ 304 Bn - The present value of the 'Trust Fund' is something over $1.2 Trillion. The surpluses claimed by the then administration never came anywhere near that. The only thing scary about that is that politicians keep lying about Soc Sec without apparently being aware of these facts. After the USSR was broken by Ronald Reagan our necessary defense spending could be cut for obvious reasons. The Clinton govt made enormous cuts in defense spending and yet still never managed to show a surplus with out including the Soc Sec surplus in their figures.
Why pick on the AARP ? they would only like to see their members get back out of the system something of the order of what they paid in (Not a chance in hell !)
BB

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Chris Smith
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Re: National Debt

Post by Chris Smith » Fri May 13, 2005 3:28 pm

The national debt,... is owning enron cook books. <p>
SS should never have been sent to the general fund by RayGun, for future thefts and raids. <p>It should be on its own, making interest for future ups and downs. <p>Thanks RayGun, for all the theft past and present and the B.S. we must listen to from now on about it going broke.<p> And don’t worry, this president wants to put the last nail in Your SS coffin anyway.<p> And His buddies want your money to play roulette on the stock market with. A sure thing they keep reminding us, even after black Monday.

Yerry
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Re: National Debt

Post by Yerry » Fri May 13, 2005 5:54 pm

So, anybody got any really neat electronic circuits taht apply to this National debt?

wolfcreek
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Re: National Debt

Post by wolfcreek » Sat May 14, 2005 10:41 pm

No the problem is not whether social security is on the budget or not. The money has always been removed since FDR and used in the general fund. It was not till the 80's that the theft was put on the books. It has always been a ponsi scheme and always will be.<p>I would be for ending social security for anyone below the age of 40 right now. I do not want to receive or pay for social security. I would prefer to invest my own money where I want, not where Washington wants. <p>When social security was conceived it was to be for the poor only. It also had 15 to 20 workers per retiree. Today that has dropped to around 2 to 3 workers. In a few short years it will be one worker or less per retiree. Unfortunately AARP feels it is obliged to F**K my generation and younger generations in order to keep it's voting block happy.

rstofer
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Re: National Debt

Post by rstofer » Sun May 15, 2005 1:31 am

First, like a mortgage, the national debt implies that what we have doesn't belong to us. It belongs to foreign countries that hold our bonds and cash. A very bad thing as they can easily control the value of our dollar - all they have to do is start selling dollars and our international businesses will tank. With that goes the stock market and the 401(k)'s.<p>Second, I put 40 years of my money into Social Security, maxing every year except the two where I was drafted, and I want it back - with interest. I plan to collect every dime and live as long as possible. I want it back! And I will happily pay AARP to represent my interests in Washington. <p>Further, I don't want to hear discussions about "need" as in, if you have some money, you don't "need" Social Security. I put the money in and I want it back!<p>And I don't want to hear about generation transfers. The government knew the bubble would burst and they knew when it would happen. I don't care if Social Security eats every dime of the federal budget - maybe that will keep us out of future, worthless wars.<p>I want my Medicare as well. I need it and, considering how much income tax I have paid over the years, I want it. Every dime!<p>And if the younger generation can't make enough money to pay the taxes to fund my retirement and drive a new car - too bad. We paid for your education, we're moving out of the workplace so you have room and now it's your turn. Better pick up the pace... You have a tough act to follow!

wolfcreek
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Re: National Debt

Post by wolfcreek » Sun May 15, 2005 9:07 pm

No wonder we are screwed. It is that kind of thinking that is sending this country down the drain. When the taxes become too high we will just stop paying and it wont be us who are screwed.<p>[ May 15, 2005: Message edited by: wolfcreek ]</p>

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Chris Smith
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Re: National Debt

Post by Chris Smith » Sun May 15, 2005 9:24 pm

I stopped paying back in 93.
I only support that which is good for all of us.

2M MACHINING
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Re: National Debt

Post by 2M MACHINING » Mon May 16, 2005 8:12 pm

I paid in 97,they didnt think it was enough so im still paying for 97,<p>only
because they have more guns

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Chris Smith
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Re: National Debt

Post by Chris Smith » Mon May 16, 2005 11:40 pm

You have to know the system and you use it against them.<p>Take no prisoners or their usual B.S.
They are full of it, and they are lackies that don’t know the tax laws.[only some bosses do]<p>If a moron tells you are wrong, move on up the ladder to his boss.
[his boss will cost them 200 an hour]<p>Don’t let them double tax you.
If you paid a tax on a purchase, there are no other taxes. <p>Deduct everything especially if you have been taxed on it already.<p>Challenge everything
Write off everything<p>End up in the red on paper each and every day<p>Leave no paper trails<p>Checks accecpted are for write offs, purchases, and debts owed.<p>Cash is yours<p>Make them pay you to stay in business<p>And the list is long, as long as the B.S. tax code. <p>Fear nothing or your knees will buckle at the wisp of the IRS coming to visit you.

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