Ammonium Persulfate disposal

[philba]

Originally posted by Chris Smith:
First of all, per chlorate crystals are fine, but heat on them isn’t. Not saying you cant do it, just don’t agitate it after you form crystals.

Thanks for the warning, if I ever use Ammonium Perchlorate, I'll keep that in mind. But since we aren't talking about that, I'm not sure of your point.

I wouldn't worry about Ammonium Persulfate, though - heating a solution of it is fine. Cupric Sulfate is no problem either.

[Chris Smith]

Philba

From my experience as a kid and leading into and beyond the turn of this century, what I have learned is never "Dismiss" the dangers of metals mixed in with ANY perchlorates/ per sulfates.

Lead persulfates make great rocket fuels.

I have discovered many formulae playing around in my "kitchen" over the last half century, and some are wild beyond even the known dangers of what can be found in the books.

I have discovered one known formulae relating to Ether, and another that has been recently written into the FBIs law books thanks to me.

The latter you don’t even look sideways at, in case it doesn’t like the look on your face?

It goes off at the touch. [even a feather]

The longer it sits, the crankier it gets and when your etching, who really knows what metals are involved?

Made in China has a new meaning.

The Nevada Episode was another wake up call to the over looked obvious, when perchlorates are treated as common substances and stored routinely.

Unfortunately there, because of a lack of concern, several died and thousands of windows were blown out over ten mile away in Vegas.

NEVER treat any perchlorate/ persulfates as “just a substance”.

<small>[ February 09, 2006, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Chris Smith ]</small>

[jimandy]

Oh goody. A new battle to see who has the last word!

[philba]

Well, I don't care, chris can have all the last words he wants.

Persulfate is relatively benign stuff and considerably less reactive than perchlorate. Compare the 2 MSDSs. You will find perchlorate listed as an explosive, persulfate listed as an oxidizer. Big difference. There really is no need to drag Perchlorate into this discussion.

Also, in solution, there is no fuel to oxidize. The copper gets converted to Copper Sulfate and, thus, isn't free. By the way, I checked and Copper Sulfate is much less soluble in water than AP so it is the CS that is precipitating out. I think you could decant the remaining solution and dry the remaining crystals. The MSDS for CS doesn't even list it as an oxidizer (though it does say fairly toxic).

[Chris Smith]

Phil... sounds like another "you guess" situation like you are so famous for,....and I hope you well as in your arm is blown off the next time you play, where you were told not to go,..., the same as the last bomb squad said to me before he lost his hearing permanently, and he too said... it only looks like a fire cracker?

I love morons, they seem to settle at the Nuts and volts forum like it was a sanction for "those with out brains" who don’t know, but feel they must speak out loudest when they know the least?

Elders must piss them off with the truth for some reason when they just speak?

Well FROM this gramps I say don’t do it PHIL, but [from what I know about you] I hope the hell you do it, just so you can report back to us from your arm missing or your apartment is leveled????]

Thank you for keeping up this project, sincerely....?

Report back from the hospital, please. Really/////

[philba]

Sir, there is no reason to call names just because some one has a differing opinion.

Read the MSDS. Read the literature on etching with AP. I did, no guessing done. Nowhere in there will you find any reference to explosive dangers with AP. none. nada. zip. There's a reason for that - it doesn't happen. One could probably make an explosive with it but I grew out of that 40 years ago. I've used up 4 Kilos of AP in the last 2 years and nothing even remotely close to what he claims has ever happened. If it was so reactive, where are the reports of injuries and damage? Why doesn't the MSDS warn of such things? I suspect he got perchlorate and persulfate confused and is not able to admit he made a mistake. each to his own...

Here are the MSDSs for both compounds. I invite people to compare them.
Ammonium Perchlorate
Ammonium Persulfate
Everything he said, indeed, applies to Perchlorate but none of it applies to Persulfate.

I love how when he can't win an argument with logic he casts aspersions and makes ad hominim attacks. Well, I am sure there are few out there that believe what he has to say

I may not get the last word but it may well be the last civil word.

Phil

<small>[ February 09, 2006, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: philba ]</small>

[dyarker]

"I love morons, they seem to settle at the Nuts and volts forum like it was a sanction for "those with out brains" who don’t know, but feel they must speak out loudest when they know the least?"

First hand knowledge!

<small>[ February 10, 2006, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Dale Y ]</small>

[rshayes]

The ammonium persulfate MSDS has a rather interesting phrase, " May decompose upon exposure to water or moist air." When mixed with water, it probably splits into sulphate ions and possibly ammonium hydroxide ions or some other combination. The sulphate ions appear to react with the copper and precipitate out as copper sulphate.

Evaporating the exhausted solution would give a mixture of copper sulphate and other compounds, possibly ammonium sulphate or other compounds. The reduced sulphate available would discriminate against reforming the original ammonium persulphate.

Ammonium sulphate is used commercially as a fertilizer. It does not appear to be prone to explosion.

Copper sulphate is considered toxic (at the part per million level) to aquatic organisms. The heavy metal, copper, is also an environmental problem. Most waste water treatment plants use some form of bacterial digestion, and a moderate quantity of copper sulphate could possibly shut the plant down.

It might be permissable to flush small quantities. That would depend on whatever laws and regulations apply. Larger quantities would probably have to be treated as Philba suggested, evaporate to a crystalline form and treat as hazardous waste.

[Dean Huster]

"Deja vu all over again" to junior high in 1962 when I was busy taking apart shotgun shells and trying to blow the fingers off my hand ... but it is fun, isn't it?

Ah, for the days when we didn't worry about the atmosphere and water table and just dumped our used motor oil on the driveway on the farm to keep the dust down.

Is there a smiley that does a "tongue in cheek"?

Dean

[philba]

Originally posted by Dean Huster:
"Deja vu all over again" to junior high in 1962 when I was busy taking apart shotgun shells and trying to blow the fingers off my hand ... but it is fun, isn't it?

Ah, for the days when we didn't worry about the atmosphere and water table and just dumped our used motor oil on the driveway on the farm to keep the dust down.

Is there a smiley that does a "tongue in cheek"?

Dean

Yeah, I remember in the 60s getting my mom to mail order some chemicals for me. 2 pounds of Potasium Perchlorate was one of them. Mixed with aluminum powder, it made a brilliant flash. I added cut up bits of magnesium ribbon and got some pretty cool displays. The other fun one is thermite (al powder and iron oxide) - pretty amazing reaction once you get it going. At least I learned the basics of chemistry and got a reasonably good sense of how to work with pyrotechnics.

Suprisingly, I survived the 60s. I hope the planet does too...

[Engineer1138]

You guys really oughta read _The Radioactive Boy Scout_

Puts my junior-high school playing with homemade gunpowder to shame

[jimandy]

Then there's the liquid you get from steeping iodine crystals in ammonia solution. I think it's called tri-nitro-iodide. What's fun is to pour some on a surface and let it dry. When a fly lands on it he goes up in a bang and a cloud of purple smoke.

Disposing of the remaining crystals can pose somewhat of a problem.

[Bob Scott]

We may as well go off-topic even further.

There are a few items that you probably don't find in today's science classes that you did find in the '60s. How about

Asbestos pads to place under that bunsen burner.

Liquid mercury for making a class barometer with a pool of mercury at the bottom.

Generating H2S gas for making that rotten egg smell in the class and hallways.

[philba]

I did read the radioactive boyscout. a home nuclear reactor was the goal, as I recall. Yeah, my experiments were tame compared to his but at least the FBI didn't take me away...

By the way, its called ammonium tri-iodide and is suprisingly easy to make. One kid in chem lab made some and blackened the radiator where he put the filter paper to dry out. We didn't see him for a couple of weeks.

[jimandy]

I'll bet most kids who bought a Gilbert chemistry set tried this one...

http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft/CC ... cerin.html