kronos web site sucks!!!!

[goner19]

truth of the matter is...when one is getting started it is not really all that clear the differances in all these products. so one does the best research , based on the magazines and web sites, and picks what is hopefully a good product.

i went with kronos because of the weather station articles in nuts and volts. and then the parallax cuase of the frustration w the kronos junk.

but it seems that mircochip is the direct route. im not sure what extras i would be paying for by buying their chips second hand from kronos.

[philba]

you're paying for the programming and the environment. And, the hand-holding which you clearly never got. Those articles are part of their marketing plan, it seems that they work...

A suggestion if you want to go PIC. Get a PICKit2 - $35 and buy a PIC18F4550 (~$5.50). The interface is via USB and works pretty well. You might be able to reuse the Kronos PIC if it's not toast. There are tons of circuits and programs around. Get a solderless breadboard, a few resistors and a couple of LEDs. Blink an LED (HW equivalent of hello world). Source boost has free compilers (even basic, I believe). Read up here and other places. There are a ton of projects. Download the PIC datasheet and read it though it will mostly be gibberish, you'll get it eventually.

[goner19]

well im not totally green

i do know my way around 741 and a 555
but i am new to pics (about a year now)

so i have located the data sheet
and youre right is 412 pages a lot of gibberish

so can i plug it into a bread board and build a rs232 and program it that way?

i looked at the pickit2 the starter kit was a 100$ too.

[goner19]

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcpl ... e=en010304

[philba]

I don't know where you got that price from but you can buy the pickit2 from $35 from lots of places. Mouser, for example:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDet ... nDhQ%3d%3d
You can get clones slightly cheaper but I'd not take the risk.

Yes, you can put that on a breadboard. You will need a programmer - the pickit2 uses USB. Don't waste your time with anything else. It also supports debugging which is a HUGE benefit for a newbie.

[MrAl]

Hi,

philba:
Doesnt that 35 dollar PicKit2 require a pc board in order to program any ICs ?
The 50 dollar kit includes a low pin count (up to 20 pin devices) pc board that the chip
can plug into.
The 35 dollar kit doesnt have a socket for any IC chip of any kind, just a connector, right?

[haklesup]

I wouldn't be surprised if you can use the Microchip PIC on that Kronos board and maybe even load it with the Kronos firmware but I can't confirm that. The board is just interconnects, nothing active on it, its likely to work with a Microchip programmer connected serially.

As for curve tracing, you really can't easily do that with an oscilloscope though there are projects out there that do let you convert your oscilloscope in X-Y mode. Just checking the diode forward voltage in both directions of the pins with a DMM in diode check mode will show very damaged pins but subtle damage may be harder to see. Naturally a pin should not be shorted or open and will probably have similar impedance to other similarly named pins nearby on the same chip (if you don't have one to compare to yet). Probe the pin WRT VDD and VSS pins. THere should be a diode between the pin and the supplies when not powered.

[philba]

Hi,

philba:
Doesnt that 35 dollar PicKit2 require a pc board in order to program any ICs ?
The 50 dollar kit includes a low pin count (up to 20 pin devices) pc board that the chip
can plug into.
The 35 dollar kit doesnt have a socket for any IC chip of any kind, just a connector, right?

Well, you need to put the target chip in something. Socket? who uses that anymore? Most people use in-circuit system programming - ICSP. Swapping a chip out of a socket to change the code gets old VERY fast. Not only that but then you can use the debug capability of the PICKit2. When I design a PCB, I'll put a programming header on the board or use a clip (dip clip, soic clip) to hook up the programmer. When I was first learing PICs, I got a ZIF socket. I haven't used it in years. Waste of money. I (and a lot of other people) use solderless breadboards to prototype and experiment with microcontroller chips. Plug everything in, program, debug, fix, rebuild, program. You don't have to touch the HW at all. I like it so much that I designed a pickit2 clone that has pins on it to plug right into the SBB. No wild wires and so on. I've also designed a little adapter board to allow the microchip pickit2 to plug into the SBB but that's not as fun as building your own tools.

I wouldn't buy the add on card for the various pickit2 bundles. Another waste of $15.

Also, sockets are a problem for PICs as there are a number of pinouts - even for the same size chips. PIC16 and PIC18 have different programming pin assignments, fpr example.

[goner19]

so basically by buying the same chip from kronos im just paying for their compiler to dumb down the code. i could get the same pic18f4620 direct from microchip (and i may or may not work with the board i bought from kronos)

question : how much harder is it to learn real code verus the syntax that the kronos complier uses?

[philba]

Well, Kronos uses BASIC so you could just use that. Or, you could spend a little more time and learn C. I'd go with BASIC if you aren't planning to do much beyond play around and C if you are planning more serious use of Microcontrollers. There is also assembly language but I don't think that's going to be your cup of tea.

By the way, the chip from Kronos is like $33? $5.33 from Newark. $6.50 from Mouser.

[goner19]

if its the same langauge (which i have a pretty good understanding of) what the hell am i paying for? is 28$ for the stupid sticker?

im ordering one from mauser today!

[psycho]

Just my 2 cents here so take it whatever way you want to...

When I first saw the basic stamp, I knew nothing at all about what a uC was or what all it could do... Nothing. I did a lot of research and reading on the net an decided that I didn't need to buy a $35 repackaged PIC to use a uC. Instead, I spent a bit of money on a very nice dev board (http://www.mikroe.com/en/tools/easypic5/) Although this was a long time ago and my board was an easypic3...

This same company also has compilers BUT, I would think twice about their compilers. They are good, and they update them regularly but, I haven't used my $100 version of mikro-pascal in at least a year. I am now using the 18F series of PICs almost exclusively and I use the MPLAB C Compiler for it.

One note about their boards. Yes... The easypic 5 is a nice board and it does have source level debugging. But, AFAIK, the source level debugging ONLY works with THEIR compilers.

I also have the PICKIT2 and it is very nice for $35 bux! In fact, it's the best $35 bux I have spent on a uC "goody". When I got it, I also got a small dev board with it (no addition $). But, it looks like they upped the price to $49 - see http://www.microchipdirect.com/products ... s=DV164121

Also, there is the PICKIT3 - I would stay away from this like the plague. I have read that there are numerous bugs (still a new product).

I have the PIC 18 Explorer board which uses larger (80 pin) devices but you probably won't need anything like that.

If I had to recommend one of the above, I would go with the easypic5 - more bang for the buck. Just remember that it is made specifically for their compilers. Note that you can use another compiler and use their PicFlash software to burn the hex file into the device so you are not limited to programming with their compilers - just debugging.

Or, if you are strapped for cash (aren't we all), you could make your own dev board.

Kevin

[philba]

Like I said in a different thread - I really don't recommend trainers. You won't use them for long enough to justify the costs. Especially for a motha like the easypic5.
http://forum.servomagazine.com/viewtopi ... =4&t=14227

[psycho]

Oh... And to answer a specific question, most versions of basic are pretty.... well... basic. I wouldn't think it would be hard at all to switch from one to the other. Mostly the compiler directives and usage would be all...

However, if you know C, I would recommend using it, instead. Actually, even if you don't know it If you have some spare time, try learning C.

Microchip has their MPLAB C18 compiler which has no code size restrictions in the 60 day eval version. Once the eval period is over, the output will not be optimized, though. Lots of good reference designs (examples) and Appnotes available! On the Microchip forums you can get goo-gobs of help. That is, if you can't get an answer here

Kiel makes compilers but I have never tried one.

MikroElektronica makes a C, a Pascal (which I have) and a basic compiler. They update them regularly, have several reference designs (examples) and all the times I needed help, it was a mouse click away. And I remember seeing a book written specifically for their C compiler.

Hi-Tech software was purchased by Microchip so I don't know what is going to happen with them....

There are other compilers out there, too. If you are adventurous, you could check out SDCC which is an open source C compiler for Small Devices. They are working heavily on their PIC18F support now. From their site (http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/) :
--
SDCC is a retargettable, optimizing ANSI - C compiler that targets the Intel 8051, Maxim 80DS390, Zilog Z80 and the Motorola 68HC08 based MCUs. Work is in progress on supporting the Microchip PIC16 and PIC18 series. SDCC is Free Open Source Software, distributed under GNU General Public License (GPL).
--

There are plenty of choices... Almost all of which do NOT require you to spend $35 per chip!!!

Kevin

[psycho]

Like I said in a different thread - I really don't recommend trainers. You won't use them for long enough to justify the costs. Especially for a motha like the easypic5.
http://forum.servomagazine.com/viewtopi ... =4&t=14227

I know you keep saying that... For some people, I am sure that rings true. But... For some of us, that is not the case. I prototype my projects on dev boards that hook to breadboards and then I put it all together on a PCB. Right now I have my PIC 18 explorer board connected to my Digilent FPGA board to get a project done. When I am satisfied that it will work the way I want it to, I will hopefully put all the required parts (uC, FPGA, SRAM, etc) on a dedicated PCB.

Also, in this case, I recommended that because he already has (if he didn't throw it out) a kronos board.

kevin