New LCD TV

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MrAl
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New LCD TV

Post by MrAl »

Hello,


Well, i purchased a new LCD TV and i have to say i am a bit disappointed. The contrast for dark
pictures just isnt there at all, so when you watch a movie that was filmed in subdued light
(a fair amount of scenes in some movies) the faces are distorted because the back light does not
allow perfect dark levels. My old $150 CRT television has better overall picture quality for these
kinds of movie scenes than this BRAND NEW $250 LCD television has! And that tube is over
10 years old!
In pseudo dark movie scenes the faces are almost not recognizable like they are in light scenes,
so you may not even be able to recognize the actors in certain scenes because their facial
detail is way lost.
I tried several picture settings too, including what they call "dynamic contrast" and nothing
helped.
Also, there appears to be only one setting that you can use if you dont want the lighter
pictures to look like newspaper cartoons...and that is a fairly dark dark setting where
many indoor scenes appear way too dark to look natural.

Is this TV junk or are they all like that?
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
steveD
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by steveD »

What brand is the LCD TV? Some are better then others. Did you go to the store and compare picture quality? Did you read the specs and compare to other brands?
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MrAl
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by MrAl »

steveD wrote:What brand is the LCD TV? Some are better then others. Did you go to the store and compare picture quality? Did you read the specs and compare to other brands?

Hi Steve,

It's very hard to compare in the store because they dont play material that would look objectional on the TV's
because they know it would look bad. You really have to get one home to understand the whole scope
of the problem.

I think the main problem may be in the contrast...which doesnt seem to be very good unless the scene
is well lit. Darker scenes merge into one big black 'blob' of color with little or no distinct outlines.
Other times the outlines are all you can see, with very little color or light difference between.
An example is when viewing the cheeks of people, where it looks like they have way too much
makeup on. The colors can not change enough in a subtle enough way to make the cheek appear
normal unless they are positioned in the distance or a very close closeup. When in the distance
they look normal because the eye doesnt expect too much detail, and with a closeup the screen
is capable of displaying with somewhat acceptable detail, but in between the face looks blurred
where there should be at least some detail.

I could post some pics of this problem if anyone is interested in seeing what this looks like.
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
reloadron
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by reloadron »

Hi Ya Mr. Al

Funny you started this thread. A few months back we finally replaced an old big screen rear projection Magnavox. That old Magnavox refused to die and is now enjoyed by friends we gave it to. Following months of research and checking out different models we settled on a 52" Sony which I have come to love. The dark scenes you mention are very vivid where before I hated dark scenes because I was unable to make things out well even viewing tha projection set in a dark room. I can't speak for other makes and models but the new Sony does an excellent job of rendering those dark scenes in movies.

Ron
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haklesup
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by haklesup »

The LCD TV market seems to have matured to the point where you get what you pay for. Contrast ratio is the prime spec for low light images and the backlight particularly LED is the key to color rendition. I haven't seen much said about the faster 120Hz refresh rates but I imagine it helps with fast action. NO LCD beats a CRT for blacks AFAIK but its close enough for all but the most pickey viewers. It should beat the rear projection on all counts though. What are the specs on your TV?

I find a bit has to do with the input. Some OSD features on my TV aren't accessible unless you have a true digital input like HDMI or Air. Have you tried all the picture modes. Some look terrible IMO. Best to compare TVs with all options turned off

I always shop at a store with a return policy but those TVs are so large, returning one to try another is a real pain in the back. Depending on what your objectional video is, you might be able to bring it to the store with you (for example a DVD you know well). With a sale on the line, they'll probably pop it in for you.
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MicroRem
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by MicroRem »

In my experience with digital x-ray equipment, we still recommend CRT monitors to our customers because of the problems listed above. The biggest issue we run is to is response time. The typical LCD monitor/tv has a response time of about 5ms. With our systems, the video card is outputting video faster than the monitor can react, resulting in a choppy video. Its hard to convince a customer a CRT monitor is the way to go, but when they actually see the difference, the CRT wins....
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MrAl
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by MrAl »

Hi folks,


Thanks for the great replies, this is exactly the kind of stuff i wanted to hear about. I was wondering and
wondering just how these LCD tv's worked and it seems from all your responses that they do have a
problem inherent in the basic design. I deem this problem the "low level light contrast problem".

With the problem of low level light contrast in mind, i wonder if any manufacturers have taken any
steps to try to correct this very apparent problem? I have seen one tv on the web made by
Sharp that has something called "Ambilight" (variant spelling) or something like that. I wonder if
this is an attempt to correct the low level contrast problem? The ads state that the backlight
is quote "soft" unquote, and i did notice that the missing black levels (which is part of the problem
if not all of it) would suddenly get better if low level picture frames had the ability to lower the
backlight level. This is something i noticed on my recent PC LCD monitor too, where the backlight
stays at one constant level and it is too bright too work properly with the polarizing filters in LCDs
of this type.

Trying to define exactly what the mechanism is for this problem...working backwards, anyone who ever held
two polarizing filters together (oriented so that their polarization planes are perpendicular) and up to
the light would immediately notice that it is not possible to block out *ALL* of the light, just most of it.
Well, since the LCD works by the use of two polarizing filters oriented in the same way when the light
of a pixel is not modified by the liquid crystals it passes through those two filters, and because of
their orientation *most* of the light gets attenuated, but, not *all* of it. It seems that *most* is
just not good enough. There needs to be MORE light blocked by the filters, or some other means to do
the same. This means that there may be, out of 256 possible levels, only (say) 192 levels that actually
change the light level, while the lower 64 levels dont do much at all (if anything at all). The CRT
doesnt have this problem. Any ideas here?
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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haklesup
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by haklesup »

If Ambilight were an attempt at rectifying the lack of a true black, it works by fooling the eye and brain rather than actually providing a better picture. The soft light shines on the wall behind the TV set causing your eyes to adjust to a dimly lit room rather than a dark room with a bright square in the middle. Perhaps with the periphery lit, your eye is less likly to percieve the lack of a true black.

Mostly look for LED backlighting and very high contrast ratio. The Samsung monitor at my desk is 2ms fast and 20000:1 contrast. Black looks pretty black to me but I never saw this monitor in a dark room. I have not seen an LED backlight yet but they say the backlight level can be adjusted while it's constant (well it can be adjusted in steps but not dynamically for the picture content) for a CCFL. These sets also use less power so are greener. I think a plasma display does better blacks but at the cost of a lot of watts.

A good test is to put the TV on a black screen (select video input with nothing connected) and see how much the set lights a darkened room. If you have a photographic quality light meter, such a test could be made objective. Maybe you can make a black felt hood you can duck inside of and bring it to the stores. ("whose that crazy guy with the blanket over his head in the TV department")
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MrAl
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by MrAl »

hackle,

Very interesting idea there. I could make up something i guess, with a detector, that has a small hood around
it and take samples on different parts of the screen and meter the samples out.

The LCD i have been talking about, with the screen blank (dark with no picture) puts out enough light
to act as a night light. This tells me that the CCFL is set too high or it's just to high to begin with.
I cant go inside this thing or it will void the warranty or i might try something over the CCFL to dim
the light a little.
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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Janitor Tzap
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by Janitor Tzap »

Hi MrAl,

Didn't we have a similar posting regarding LCD Back Lighting?

Well, there probably isn't any actual physical controls inside the set to adjust.
But there may be a service mode that you can get into, that will allow you to adjust the settings.

Finding out how to get the set into service mode could be tough, since the set is so new.
But check the manufactures website, and see if they can offer you technical support.
Or shoot off and E-mail, asking them as to how you might get into the service mode to adjust the back lighting.

Sorry, I can't be of more help.
But each manufacturer has a different way to gain access to the service mode of the set. :(


Signed: Janitor Tzap
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MrAl
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Re: New LCD TV

Post by MrAl »

Hi Janitor,

Yes we did, and it might have been me asking about an LCD PC monitor.
This device is an LCD television, which i expected to be at least a
little bit better.

I'll have to look up that info on the manufacturers site i guess as
you say and hope they have something.

You know what is really funny, i was talking to a friend the other
day about this LCD television and i caught myself saying (and note
the use of the word 'almost' here),
"Some of the pictures that are well lit come out looking very nice
on this tv set. This television is almost like a new TV set".
At 250 dollars US i would have expected it to be EXACTLY like a new
tv set, wouldnt anyone else?

:smile:
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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