Making hydrogen from water & DC

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rshayes
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by rshayes » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:23 am

Almost free tidal power?<p>A Norwegian tidal power plant is in the process of construction that is expected to provide power for about 1000 homes. The cost is estimated to be 100 million dollars. If the capital cost is charged against those homes at the rate of $100 per month, recovering the principal (no interest) will take over 80 years.<p>In this particular case, this may be a bargain. The town that will use the power is above the Arctic Circle and receives very little sunlight in winter, when you need the power the most. Frozen rivers (if any) are not much use for hydroelectric power. Fossil fuels, such as oil, coal, or natural gas may not be available locally. If they are brought in by ship, the cost is probably high, and this may be possible only in the summer. "Enjoy" is not the word I would choose to describe this situation. "Going to Hell" might be closer.<p>The tides do slow the rotation of the Earth down. The rate is a fraction of a second per year and any effects due to human extraction of tidal energy would probably be smaller than this.<p>E=mc^2 sounds good. After all, Einstein wrote the equation and he was a brilliant man. Unfortunately, when this equation is applied to photons, the result is zero, since the mass of a photon is zero.<p>It is also meaningless as an expression of the energy due to motion. The expression for kinetic energy is: E=(1/2)mv^2. The speed of light does not enter into it.<p>The motion of the Earth does represent a fair amount of kinetic energy. The relative motion with respect to Alpha Centauri is probably a quite respectable speed (km/sec ?) and the masses are reasonably large. The energy in thiis case is less than the Earth's motion through the cosmos, but still substantial and easier to extract. All you need is a rope about a light year long and a pulley on the shaft of a big generator. This is a mere technical detail that can easily be solved with a government subsidy.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Chris Smith » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:24 pm

Actually charged particles and “Zero Point Energy” is the subject under study at the moment. If it pans out, great, it will represent lots of power, if not, we will learn other things from the failure.<p> Light, with its no mass, still has pure energy to impart and so it is anything but useless.<p>And light as the equation of “C” is a Reference point, not an absolute.<p> Even Einstein knew it was not the fastest thing in the cosmos but merely a great reference point for his famous equation. And its hard to do the math with out some starting point.<p>Quantum computing and entangled photon pairs has proven this out, so far.

Gorgon
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Gorgon » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:24 pm

Hi Stephen,
I was intrigued by your post on the Norwegian tidal power plant. Since it was unknown to me as a local, I tried to find out more about it, but sadly no info was present on the web. The only tidal plant found was a fullscale test plant in the south part of Norway, but very far from the Polar Circle. So, if you have more info on this I'll be very interested.<p>I will also try to enlighten you all on the status of power generation in Norway. In contrast to the bleak info on the norwegian climate, Norway is the one(and only?) country in Europe with only hydroelectric power generation, so far. We both export and import electric power through the European power grid, export in the summer and import in the winter, when the climate makes it impractical to produce enough power. We use big dam construction up in the mountains and run the water through tunnels inside the mountain to the power plants, mostly also built inside the mountains. This is done to preserve the environment and to make the temperature stable. This is done all over the country, also in the northernmost parts, far beyond the arctic circle.

Since we also produce both oil and gas from the North Sea, there are plans to build environmental friendly natural gas power plants in the next few years, to supplement the hydroelectric power.
Even if we have 'free' hydroelectric power, we pay the same price as the rest of Europe, due to the export and import structure. No free rides here. ;)
Gorgon the Caretaker - Character in a childrens TV-show from 1968. ;)

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Chris Smith
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Chris Smith » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:39 pm

The power is always free, it’s the infra structure that costs so much money. <p>Hydro electric is also free, it’s the damn dam that cost so much to make. <p>Throw in greed and profit, and it costs even more.

rshayes
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by rshayes » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:43 pm

Hello Gorgon,<p>I tried a google search using "norway tidal power". Most of the first hits referred to a tidal power plant using underwater turbines on the bottom of "Kvalsund", which I assume is a strait, possibly between the mainland and an offshore island. The town which will use the power was given as "Hammerfest Stroem". It was referred to as the farthest north city in the world. The power plant was expected to be in full operation by 2004. There were also references to a two month night in midwinter, which would place it far north of the Arctic Circle.<p>This may have been on the shipping route to Murmansk during World War II. As I understand it, this route was only open for a few months in the summer. Of course, these were transport ships and not icebreakers.<p>As far as the climate is concerned, I assume that this area is the worst that Norway has to offer. The United States has an area known as Death Valley where summertime temperatures routinely go over 120 degrees (49 centigrade) and the record is close to 130 degrees (54 centigrade). This is the opposite extreme. I wouldn't move to Death Valley to "enjoy" the free solar power either.<p>As I understand it, the pre-Christian equivalent of Hell in Scandinavia was filled with snow and ice. I suspect that this town is pretty close to that concept. Death Valey is a pretty good match to the Christian concept, with the Sahara Desert in Libya beating it by a few degrees.<p>I misread "crowns" (kroner?) as dollars. The cost will only be about 13.4 million dollars, which may bring the payback time down to a decade or so. In the circumstances it is probably well worth the money.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Chris Smith » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:15 pm

If you lived in Death Valley, you would be a fool to not apply solar to cool your place down.<p> Actually Death valley is a wonderful place, its best asset is scaring away the traffic and hordes as “a place not to go” because its too dangerous?<p>Compared to L.A., well there is no comparison? <p>I used to visit Death Valley every year for decades for the solace, the quiet, and for the sublime beauty. <p>And when you know where all the water is, it’s a push over. And in winter it is even better.

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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by slingshot » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:13 pm

3) High-energy photons (e.g., those of ultraviolet radiation) are dangerous to cells because they can break down organic molecules by breaking chemical bonds.<p>4) Low-energy photons (e.g., those of infrared radiation) do not damage cells because they do not break chemical bonds but merely increase vibrational energy.<p>
What is light? From physics class, perhaps you learned that light is an electromagnetic wave. I won't go through all the derivations from Maxwell’s equations and such, but it is easy to demonstrate that changing electric fields give rise to changing magnetic fields and changing magnetic fields give rise to changing electric fields. Thus, you can set up an oscillator that alternates between a magnetic field and an electric field. You can show that such an oscillation will propagate though space as it goes back and forth between the magnetic and electric fields. Thus one of the properties of light is that it has a particular speed. This speed depends on what material the light is traveling through, but in a vacuum the speed of light is 2.988 x 108 m/s. Since light is nothing more than exchange between an electric and magnetic field, it is a form of pure energy (no mass). Because light is an oscillating field, it has a frequency of oscillation. Because it is traveling through space at a constant speed, the light will cover a certain distance within one oscillatory cycle. This is called the wavelength of light. Finally, it turns out that the amount of energy in wave of light is proportional to its frequency – the higher the frequency of light, the higher the energy. High frequency also corresponds to a short wavelength, so wavelength and frequency are inversely related.<p>Thus, if I have a high enough amplitude of visible light, it should act like an X-ray. But is does not. It’s properties of interaction with matter depend strictly on the frequency of light and not on the amplitude (at least up to a point). It is as though light comes in packets of a set amplitude and the only thing you can vary is the frequency.<p>Photons have only one property, frequency. This determines their energy (color). <p>
The quantum nature of matter. Next, we need to consider why matter would interact with one energy (color) of photon and not another. To understand this, we need to remember that what a photon is is an oscillating electric and magnetic field. It turns out that the interaction of the magnetic field with matter is for the most part very weak, but the interaction of the electric field with matter is strong. Why? Well, what is matter but a bunch of negative charges (electrons) and positive charges (protons) all together. It is a pretty good bet that all these charges are likely to do something in the presence of an electric field. The question is what? How does a collection of negative and positive charges interact with an oscillating electric field? First off, it is the electrons that are likely to do the most simply because they are the lightest. Thus, they will most readily move in the presence of the field. They will try and move somehow back and forth, if you like, (though as we will see, thinking of an electron as being in one place is not perhaps the best model) as the field oscillates. In doing so they will pick up the energy from the field. But electrons in atoms or molecules are not free to move just anywhere. They are tied to nuclei by charge interactions that are very strong. Thus, they are more like balls on a spring or a rubber band. But what happens if you put a ball on a spring or a rubber band? Can you make it oscillate at any random frequency? No, a spring or a rubber band has a characteristic frequency or set of frequencies called resonance frequencies. The spring can only effectively collect energy at this frequency and its harmonics (double, triple, etc.) and not at intermediate frequencies. The forces that hold electrons near nuclei have similar characteristics. There are only certain resonant frequencies of energy that they can absorb.<p>So, a big part of the answer to our original question (and the basis for the electronic structure of matter) is that matter has color because the atoms and molecules that make it up contain electrons that are held to nuclei by forces, like the force of a spring or rubber band, which have particular resonance frequencies (or energies). Only certain colors of light can cause the electron to pick up (absorb energy). Since light itself comes in packets, the molecule or atom must pick up all the energy from one photon.<p>OK, but wait a minute. Doesn’t this really just mean that there must be at least that much energy in the photon? If there is too much, some of it just won’t get used by the transition. But that does not work. There is no where for the extra energy to go. Since energy must be conserved, absorption of a photon is an all or none event.<p>Matter is colored because the interactions between electrons and nuclei put constants on the space that the electron can occupy. Those constraints are like a spring or a rubber band, allowing the electron to move over a region, but only accepting oscillation energy at certain frequencies (like a spring oscillating). There are lots of examples in everyday life of energy going into matter only at certain frequencies. Consider standing waves on a spring or in a tub of water. Or how about the sound produced from instruments – again particular tones are just vibrations that happen to oscillate at a frequency that resonates with the mechanical attributes of the instruments.<p> <p>It perhaps should not be so surprising that atoms and molecules have similar properties. That’s OK for light, but how about heat? I can generally heat a block of iron to whatever temperature (and thus kinetic energy) that I want. Why is it different from light energy? Remember that matter we are used to is made up of many molecules. Even though the individual molecules can only absorb certain amounts of energy (this is true even for heat energy), the block as a whole absorbs the sum of all that energy which varies almost continuously. For example, if you have a molecule that can absorb some small amount of energy, e, but only exactly that much, a million molecules together could absorb 1e or 2e or 3e or… 999,999e or 1,000,000e. Now it is pretty hard to see the difference between absorbing 999,999e and 1,000,000e. Remember that the block of metal probably has about 1023 molecules in it. This gives rise to a very continuous looking energy absorption scale in terms of total energy at heat. Light absorption is different, however, because light comes in definite chunks and travels through space without any carrier. One photon of light must be absorbed by one molecule. Thus, it does not matter how many molecules there are. If the photon has the wrong energy, it can’t be absorbed by a molecule.

slingshot
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by slingshot » Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:16 pm

All of the above is from
University of Arizona
Chemistry course 341
Lecture # 12.<p>On the internet put this phrase in google.
University of Arizona Chem 341
Then go tothe first site listed.
Then click on Lecture #12.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Chris Smith » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:13 am

“Only certain colors of light can cause the electron to pick up (absorb energy)”<p>All frequencies or colors of light cause other objects to absorb its energy upon striking it. Some cause more energy absorption than others, but ALL photons of light impart their energy when striking solid objects. <p>“Since energy must be conserved, absorption of a photon is an all or none event”<p>No such thing as a “none event”.<p>“One photon of light must be absorbed by one molecule. Thus, it does not matter how many molecules there are. If the photon has the wrong energy, it can’’t be absorbed by a molecule”<p>Pure crap.
ALL frequencies of Light will impart its energy regardless of how many molecules are present, and at what energy level they may reside at. <p>The only difference of affect is what interaction takes place. Like a fly hitting the windshield, photons strike and impart their energy with no relative change to the windshield. <p>Photons merely absorb into matter, may or may not change anything in the process, and re-radiate back out in the form of heat or energy. <p>Striking a bell doesn’t change its matter, it merely re radiates that energy back out in the form of sound. <p>ALL frequencies of Light striking any object do the same. <p>Some even bounce off under the right conditions.

slingshot
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by slingshot » Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:31 pm

Chris Smith,<p>Perhaps you should start your own University.

slingshot
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by slingshot » Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:56 pm

How would you characterize this statement?<p>"If we shine light of a fixed energy on the sample, we can break the bonds if the photon energy is greater than the bond energy (about 1.1 eV for Si), which corresponds to the infrared portion of the spectrum. When a bond is broken, the liberated electron is now free to move within the crystal. The empty site, or hole, left by the escaping electron can be occupied by a nearby electron. Consequently, the hole can also migrate through the crystal by exchanges with the bound electrons. Both electrons and holes can trasnport charge leading to a current, a photocurrent."<p>
Each element has its own frequencies, according to the ions. Once you know the different frequencies you too can separate elements from molecules.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Chris Smith » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:15 pm

Slingshot, perhaps you should attend one? <p>Then you can speak up with knowledge. <p>And then perhaps, I wont snicker so much at your attempt to read the English language, and misunderstand every word of it and get it wrong, all too often.<p> Its obvious You have no ability to understand even simple words or phrases in that thick book you hold, called physics.

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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by slingshot » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:37 pm

Chris,<p>I am just trying to "Prove" that what I am saying about a machine that purifies seawater, produces electricity and a lot of Hydrogen, is correct and is understood by the scientific community that deals with the uses of photons.<p>"Shorter wavelength ultraviolet radiation begins to have enough energy to break chemical bonds. X-ray and gamma ray radiation, which are at the upper end of electromagnetic spectrum, have very high frequencies (in the range of 100 billion billion hertz) and very short wavelengths (1 million millionth of a metre). Radiation in this range has extremely high energy. It has enough energy to strip electrons from an atom or, in the case of very high-energy radiation, break up the nucleus of the atom."<p>
You see this is being done as we speak. It is real. No crap involved.<p>You may disagree but you are disagreeing with Nobel Prize Winners. I am quoting from one now.<p>Possibly you may desire to search the literature yourself.<p>I can not search the literature all day because I am taking some college Physics courses.<p>You may notice that all of this knowledge comes from Chemistry courses and from a Nobel Prize in Chemistry.<p>Maybe you need some refresher courses since you last attended your University.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by Chris Smith » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:14 pm

Slingshot ......Im fully aware of photon energy. Far more than you. <p> What you seem to be doing is talking, with no back up to your talk, no papers on the subject except old physics papers which you don’t understand, which makes every thing you say,... just claims.<p> Everything you speak of is old news, and your conjecture with out proof or papers is just that. <p>Its hallow. <p>Come back when you have the proverbial bird in the hand, because two in the bush are worthless.<p> You have posted exactly 18 time now, and still you fail to produce a single ounce of evidence.<p> In the scientific world we have large English word for what you are, A charlatan.<p> Now you see it, now you don’t?<p> Don’t fall off your stool anytime soon if the crowd doesn’t rush you for your proof, you haven’t got any. <p>Is it really that hard for you to “get it”?<p> You have posted exactly 18 times and you still have exactly squat, but your CLAIMS wont stop? <p>Why is this? Are you daft?

rshayes
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Re: Making hydrogen from water & DC

Post by rshayes » Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:52 am

My mother had an old saying about the pot calling the kettle black.

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