visual C

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zotdoc
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visual C

Post by zotdoc » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:59 am

Can anyone out there help me? I want to learn to program in Visual C, and I am ready to buy the programming software. Should I get Visual C++ or visual C# ? I don't really understand the difference. thanks

Engineer1138
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Re: visual C

Post by Engineer1138 » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:12 am

Don't pay a cent! Get on over to http://lab.microsoft.com/express
Here you can find the trimmed down versions of a few Microsoft development tools that they offer for free. It's a beta program right now, but they indicate that they plan to continue it.<p>As for the original question, I'd learn C# over C++. C++ (although I use it every day and have written tens of thousands of lines of code in it) is out of date with respect to modern S/W development methods. There are very few reasons to use it at all. <p>But when left to my own devices, my language of choice is Python.

redrocker
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Re: visual C

Post by redrocker » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:12 pm

Engineer1138, I am in grudging agreement with you about C++. It is difficult to master and it is getting long in the tooth. The whole VB thing seems to have some substance behind it because a common syntax allows an individual to use VB for application development, VBA for Excel and Access, VBScript, and perhaps ASP. I don't pretend to know much about any of this, but I have done enough dabbling to see the wisdom behind it. But my main question is: what is Python and why do you like it? Is it an application development language or a server-side scripting language?

hp
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Re: visual C

Post by hp » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:17 pm

If you like the vb style rapid app developement style interface then I would recommend c#. C# actually has a graphical form that you can draw controls on. Visual C++ does not.<p>So:
Visual C++ = Hard to implement GUI stuff
C# . net = Easy to do gui (vb style form design)<p>Harrison

redrocker
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Re: visual C

Post by redrocker » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:55 am

HP, you suggest C#.net for rapid developement, but VB.net also exists, as does Java. From my limited scope of knowledge, these seem to be very similar technologies. What then compels you to recommend C# over these other established technologies? What are the differences between them? (Since these questions are consistent with the theme of the original post, I think these are OK to ask!)

hp
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Re: visual C

Post by hp » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:36 am

I did not necessarily say that C# is a better choice than VB.net for rapid app developement. I just said that C# is a better choice for quick GUI design then visual C++ because the original topic was about visual C++ and C#.<p>Visual C++ is great for simple console based stuff. But it is just a pain to do gui with it.<p>C# is great for previous c++ programmers. It meshes together simple gui design, vb style event handling, and C++ style language.<p>J# is similar to C# except that the language is similar to the original sun java stuff.<p>Java is a nice language since it is free and there are many gui tools for it (such as netbeans).<p>VB.net (my choice for RAD) is wonderful because it is easy to follow since I have used vb 6 for a long time.<p>Of course this is just my opinion.<p>Harrison<p>[ January 15, 2005: Message edited by: hp ]</p>

redrocker
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Re: visual C

Post by redrocker » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:55 am

Good reply, HP. I think that will give zotdoc some stuff to chew over if and when he checks back in.

Engineer1138
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Re: visual C

Post by Engineer1138 » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:34 am

Beaker: I like Python because it flows the way my mind works. Quite frankly, I can "think" in Python. I can't explain it better than that :-)<p>Python is usable for both applications and scripting. It has high level language constructs that allow very rapid programming because you can be so abstracted from low level details.
e.g., I wrote an application to go to a website and check the value of a parameter every 10 minutes and display it on my screen. The entire app took about 5 minutes to write! Try that in C++ :-)<p>I have used it for control applications (see my website below: GUI for the Linux version of the relay controller is written in Python), as a data interpretation tool for large text files, and experimentally to do CGI scripting for a website (the Python app took a picture from a webcam and dynamically built a page with a photo of my aquarium).

redrocker
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Re: visual C

Post by redrocker » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:34 am

That Python did not look bad. I took a look at the aquarium program. I did not see the Linux GUI you referenced. All I saw there were VC++ and C command-line source. <p>That notwithstanding, it looks similar to VB in some respects: the ability to create simple classes; no requirement for explicit variable declaration - all are of type variant; simple looping and decision stuctures. Can't say one is better than the other.<p>What was intriguing was the ability to make a user interface so simply. The aquarium page was spare so I did not get the feel for whether that program would run in Windows or whether it is for Linux only. Python looks like something the hobbyist could add to their arsenal of tools for doing simple work. You ought to make a page for your site that gets someone going with it who does not know anything about it.

Engineer1138
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Re: visual C

Post by Engineer1138 » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:04 am

The Python code will run on either Windows or Linux (the low level C code would have to be changed, but 99% will be the same).<p>You're right: the relay controller GUI is not up. I'll have to do it when I have time. Python is a dynamic language, so variables are not explicitly typed. And as you mentioned, GUIs are really easy to build: the last 10 lines of the Aquarium program make a window and buttons for manual control of the light.<p>My original plan for the page was an easy introduction to doing computer I/O under Linux, since most similar sites focus on Windows, and Linux is much more hobbyist friendly. I got distracted along the way, but I still intend to put more Linux-specific stuff up there.

Mike
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Re: visual C

Post by Mike » Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:18 am

Engineer,<p>Are you sure the link to the microsoft site is the right site? I click on it and get a page not displayed.

redrocker
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Re: visual C

Post by redrocker » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:08 am


BanuHaqim
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Re: visual C

Post by BanuHaqim » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:22 pm

The big reason for using C++ is portability. If you conform to the ANSI/ISO C++ standard, your code is portable to virtually every platform in use with minimal work. Windows, Macintosh, Linux,UNIX, BSD, all of them have compilers for C++. If all a user is EVER going to want to develop for, then C# would be fine, but if the user wants to target other platforms C++ is the way to go. Also C++ is good to learn because it is a hard language to master. A good C/C++ programmer can learn most any language.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Engineer1138:
Don't pay a cent! Get on over to http://lab.microsoft.com/express
Here you can find the trimmed down versions of a few Microsoft development tools that they offer for free. It's a beta program right now, but they indicate that they plan to continue it.<p>As for the original question, I'd learn C# over C++. C++ (although I use it every day and have written tens of thousands of lines of code in it) is out of date with respect to modern S/W development methods. There are very few reasons to use it at all. <p>But when left to my own devices, my language of choice is Python.
<hr></blockquote>

Engineer1138
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Re: visual C

Post by Engineer1138 » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:36 pm

I would hardly consider the fact that it is hard to master to be a good reason to take up a new language . That's a good reason to avoid it: my time is valuable.<p>As far as portability goes: not so much! I have yet to see a C++ or C program of any complexity that could simply be recompiled and run perfectly on a new platform. They are outdated languages that are ideal only for small niches.<p>If you need portability, look at Java or Python. Probably won't port perfectly without work, but it'll be less work than the C++ solution.

BanuHaqim
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Re: visual C

Post by BanuHaqim » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:37 pm

C and C++ were intended as replacements for assembly. The thing that makes them hard is what makes them desireable. You get access to low level system functions. To become a good programmer, there is no substitute for knowing that is going on.<p>The ANSI/ISO standard C++ wasn't adopted until 1998. I'd hardly call something 6.5 years old outdated. C++ is finally mature.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Engineer1138:
I would hardly consider the fact that it is hard to master to be a good reason to take up a new language . That's a good reason to avoid it: my time is valuable.<p>As far as portability goes: not so much! I have yet to see a C++ or C program of any complexity that could simply be recompiled and run perfectly on a new platform. They are outdated languages that are ideal only for small niches.<p>If you need portability, look at Java or Python. Probably won't port perfectly without work, but it'll be less work than the C++ solution.<hr></blockquote>

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