Trying to debug a timeout error

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Bigglez
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Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by Bigglez »

There's a delay when I point my browser to a website, before
the data streams in at the expected DSL speeds.

I have tried to debug this problem but face several hurdles:

(1) I'm not an IT guy
(2) I have limited tools and training
(3) The problem appears to be beyond my "sphere of influence"
(4) The support folks in India have spent countless hours on it, and given up

Here's the starting point. If I use tracert to identify the hops
from my PC to, say, the host of this forum, I get two time outs.
These cause a delay, then rapid and predicted routing. The problem
is present on all traffic, regardless of destination URL.
Here's the tracert data:
Image
SETEC_Astronomy
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by SETEC_Astronomy »

Bigglez wrote:There's a delay when I point my browser to a website, before
the data streams in at the expected DSL speeds.
Generally that symptom can be attributed to slow DNS servers. You might give OpenDNS a try and see how you fair. The http://www.opendns.com/ DNS IPs are 208.67.220.220 and 208.67.222.222.

If that doesn't help I have a few questions. Are you on a home network? Cable, DSL or Dial-up? Behind a NAT Router? Wired or wireless connection? Using a software firewall? What web browser?
Bigglez
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by Bigglez »

SETEC_Astronomy wrote:Generally that symptom can be attributed to slow DNS servers. You might give OpenDNS a try and see how you fair. The http://www.opendns.com/ DNS IPs are 208.67.220.220 and 208.67.222.222.
Using tracert to second one didn't change the outcome. Did you
mean for me to 'sign up' for their 'service'? I skimmed their website
and could grasp if they are a service provider, a tool vendor, or
a test metrics vendor?
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:If that doesn't help I have a few questions.
Are you on a home network?
It's in my home
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:Cable, DSL or Dial-up?
DSL
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:Behind a NAT Router?
What's a NAT Router?
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:Wired or wireless connection?
Wired
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:Using a software firewall?
"Firewall Protection is installed and enabled" According to McAfee Security Center
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:What web browser?
IE7 (7.0.5730.13)

Additional info:
DSL ISP service from Earthlink
Residential phone service from AT&T (formerly PacBell)
DSLAM at CO operated by Covad
Backbone operated by Redback/Ericsson

Problem started on 01/03/09 and required paid assistance from
Linksys to reconfigure the existing router (BEFS41, installed 2003)
to be reconfigured in bridge mode. Until this was done there
was no connectively following the "0103" event.

From time to time the service fails, usually upstream of the
DSL (modem syncs to DSLAM, but won't pass traffic).

Earthlink initially (1997 - 2003) would not support a third
party router (Linksys) and would limit service requests to
"unplug the router and connect the DSL modem to your PC"

Then Earthlink offered their own router package, but only
gave service if a customer used their equipment. In this
case we were referred to Linksys tech sup which is a
pay-as-you-go option. I've paid once to get the "0103"
problem solved, and refused to do so gain.

Earthlink tech sup elevated the problem through two levels
on phone support, and the last one to be involved used a
remote loging to poke around on my PC to diagnose the
problem. He was unable to explain it, or make it go away.

Like many consumer service arrangements I'm on the tail
end of a long chain, involving serval operators. I can only
tell you it doesn't work well, and not really understand
the system upstream of my DSL modem. I don't have access
to the tools (beyond 'ping' and 'tracert') to discover more.
SETEC_Astronomy
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by SETEC_Astronomy »

Bigglez wrote:
SETEC_Astronomy wrote:Generally that symptom can be attributed to slow DNS servers. You might give OpenDNS a try and see how you fair. The http://www.opendns.com/ DNS IPs are 208.67.220.220 and 208.67.222.222.
Using tracert to second one didn't change the outcome. Did you
mean for me to 'sign up' for their 'service'? I skimmed their website
and could grasp if they are a service provider, a tool vendor, or
a test metrics vendor?
Sorry I should have explained better. OpenDNS is a free DNS provider, DNS being what translates a URL like nutsvolts.com to it's IP which in this case is 76.12.56.99. You don't need to create an account, that's only if you want to filter DNS results based on your IP so you can block your whole house or workplace from accessing Adult sites, Malware sites and so on. The filtering works by instead sending you to badmalwaresite.com when resolving the name you're sent to a page served up by openDNS explaining the site has been blocked. To change your DNS servers you need to login to your router (In your case the Linksys BEFS41 4-port switch) generally at http://192.168.1.1/ and find the proper place to enter the DNS IPs.
Bigglez wrote:What's a NAT Router?
To save a lot of time trying to poorly explain something I'll just say that you are using a NAT router, your BEFS41 qualifies.

Bigglez wrote:"Firewall Protection is installed and enabled" According to McAfee Security Center
Try disabling your firewall and using tracert again, I'm fairly certain that will fix one of your timeouts. Even if disabling the firewall fixes a timeout as I suspect it will please re-enable it when done testing. Some would say you don't need the firewall because you're behind a router which is in essence a firewall as now your computer doesn't have a publicly addressable IP but I still like the idea of software firewalls when behind routers to give you some outbound packet protection. I'm thinking the timeouts that you're seeing are a result of your software firewall blocking the first ping (timeout #1) and the BEFS41 blocking/ignoring the second (timeout #2). On the routers configuration page you can set whether it responds to pings of not.

I think the tracert timeouts and the slow page load times are two different issues, slow DNS and filtered pings. Try the above and come back with results, we'll go from there.
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kheston
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by kheston »

Biggelz,

It's somewhat normal to see one or two lines with asterisks in the tracert output, they indicate a timeout or failed PTR (reverse DNS) record lookup. A whole bunch of them in a row indicates lots of packets are being lost and that will definitely cause the slowdown you're seeing. The most curious thing is your router's IP is not identified on the first hop in your tracert output, that seldom ever happens. It should be the IP that points to your "Default Gateway." In your case, the default gateway should be your Linksys router's LAN IP address (usually 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.0.1 as Setec indicated).

Would you open a command prompt and run "ipconfig /all" and post it's output for us? I'd be interested in seeing if WINS is getting in your way or whether you have multiple gateways set up. Also, run "route print" and post the output thereof as well. Perhaps a persistent route has been mistakenly defined that needs to be deleted. These will tell us something about how your computer is configured to route traffic. None of the data should identify you personally, but if you're hesitant, go ahead and use a PM.

HTH
Kurt - SF Bay
Bigglez
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by Bigglez »

kheston wrote: Would you open a command prompt and run "ipconfig /all" and post it's output for us?
Image
kheston wrote: Also, run "route print" and post the output thereof as well.
Image
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kheston
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by kheston »

Were your computer and router here in front of me, I'd now stop looking at your computer's configuration and concentrate on the router setup.

For starters, I'd hook my own laptop up to your router and make sure the problem occurred there, too. Next, I'd log into the router (http://192.168.1.1), find the PPPoE setup options (assuming this is how Covad authenticates you, common for DSL) and write them down. I'd make sure I knew your account user name and password.

If you have a less common WAN connection setup that uses a static IP or another form of authentication, let us know.

After these values were known, I'd browse around your DSL modem to see if anything else was non-default (routing, NAT, filters, etc.). If I found anything, I'd write the additional settings down. Unless you've made changes yourself, it is unlikely there are any.

With all of the above done, I'd resign myself to a potential burning of the entire evening trying to get you back online in case things don't go smoothly.

Finally, I'd download the latest firmware from Linksys (Cisco) and proceed with the installation thereof. Linksys documents this process well. If the firmware was already the latest and greatest, I'd nevertheless reset the router to its factory defaults and proceed with re-configuring it. If I was still unable to make the thing work, I'd send you to Fry's to drop ~$50 on a new DSL router.

HTH
Kurt - SF Bay
Bigglez
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by Bigglez »

kheston wrote: Were your computer and router here in front of me, I'd now stop looking at your computer's configuration and concentrate on the router setup.
This makes sense, and Earthlink's third level tech attempted to
do so by remote login. He gave up (or reached his shift end) after
two plus hours. For much of that time I was sitting here reading
and keeping tabs on him. No problems - he was doing the kind of
"what if" exercises I would do if I knew more, and you would too.
kheston wrote: For starters, I'd hook my own laptop up to your router and make sure the problem occurred there, too.
Already done that; we have three PCs, one NB, and one
iPod touch, on this sub-net.

I conclude its either not a device (PC) related issue, or we
have configured all of them to fail.
kheston wrote: Next, I'd log into the router (http://192.168.1.1), find the PPPoE setup options (assuming this is how Covad authenticates you, common for DSL) and write them down. I'd make sure I knew your account user name and password.
This is the area that I have the least knowledge and
most suspicion. The hardware has not been touched for
(literally) years! It worked well until 01/03/09.
We've never recovered from that reboot. In fact, as
noted earlier, the system was crippled and I had to
use the pay-for-service option with Linksys tech sup
to get anything to work. That one hour session stumped
the Linksys tech but he did leave me with a 'bridge'
instead of PPPoE router configuration.

Since then the Earthlink techs have redone the router
to restore the PPPoE light (so I assume that's how it is
configured now?).
kheston wrote: If you have a less common WAN connection setup that uses a static IP or another form of authentication, let us know.
At one point I did (1990s) but as the demand for IP
addresses increased I got bumped to a DHCP service.
kheston wrote: After these values were known, I'd browse around your DSL modem to see if anything else was non-default (routing, NAT, filters, etc.). If I found anything, I'd write the additional settings down. Unless you've made changes yourself, it is unlikely there are any.
I can access the router's set up and make screen captures
if you're up for it.
kheston wrote: Finally, I'd download the latest firmware from Linksys (Cisco) and proceed with the installation thereof. Linksys documents this process well. If the firmware was already the latest and greatest,
Yeah, already visited Cisco/Linksys and know this model is old
but running the latest firmware. I downloaded and installed it
before reaching out to Earthlink for "super tech" assistance
- mainly as they force everyone through the junior tech
route first, and that takes one hour before the super tech is
brought on line, which may take another god knows how long.
kheston wrote: If I was still unable to make the thing work, I'd send you to Fry's to drop ~$50 on a new DSL router.
Yes, very tempting, and probably the next step. I'd swap this
router for a wi-fi model to extend the coverage to my tech bench
(the NB and iTouch iPod are a little scratchy on the existing
wifi hub in the centre of the main home).

If the current router was fixed I'd still need to get the wi-fi
extended, and I see that there are wireless repeaters (mess
network, I presume) to extend the radio range.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate the insight! This is a
non-trivial and non-beginner problem. Fortunately its not
a show stopper, and I suspect hopping to another ISP isn't
going to make it any easier, so I'd like to solve it (and learn
more about the technology as I go).
bodgy
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by bodgy »

Should the 169.254.0.0 entry be there? Seeing as how that is an MS provided fall back when it can't resolve to a DHCP or manual IP address.

That looks to be the routers gateway address, which doesn't look right to me - but I'm not an authority on this.

Colin
On a clear disk you can seek forever.
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kheston
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by kheston »

I noticed that, too, but I've got a similar one in my routing table and don't have the same symptoms. Still, it's a useless entry. Try deleting it for grins and see what happens:

"route delete 169.254.0.0 mask 255.255.0.0 192.168.1.100"
Kurt - SF Bay
Bigglez
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by Bigglez »

kheston wrote:Try deleting it for grins and see what happens:
"route delete 169.254.0.0 mask 255.255.0.0 192.168.1.100"
Okay, ran route print, deleted the entry as requested, ran
route print again, then routert as before. No change to the
first two timeouts.

Pictorially:
Image
Image
bodgy
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by bodgy »

What happens if you just ping or traceroute your router?

My result is less than 1ms and if I trace to my cable modem I get a 1ms response via the router.

Is your ADSL modem part of the router or a seperate box - what happens if you:

a: trace to that.

b: disconnect the router and connect the ADSL modem direct - does your problem disappear?

Colin
On a clear disk you can seek forever.
Bigglez
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Re: Trying to debug a timeout error

Post by Bigglez »

Actually, my problem has disappeared! But only as I have
junked the previous router in favour of a new one.

This was probably the solution some months ago, but I
stubbornly wanted to fix the problem and not just buy
new hardware.

I liked your experiment suggestions and I was going to try
them before work today. In the process the Internet service
failed, and after trying all of the usually reboot and reconfigure
stuff I had no choice but to phone tech support.

After one hour of fussing with it, the router was removed and
I was left with DSL modem to one PC service. After all, the
DSL company doesn't support a router they didn't sell!
They feel that getting a PC to browse the internet is proof
that their system is working, and forget about any router
set up assistance.

To get router help last time (Jan 09) I had to pay for a session
with the router manufacturer's tech support guru.

A quick visit to a local electronics store (Fry's Electronics)
and I had the successor to the original router. It wouldn't
configure using the supplied CD so I assumed it was DOA.

This evening I got another one of the same model from
another branch of that store chain and sure enough that too
was DOA.

Or, was it? Turns out that the CD instructions require a
clean PC with no prior router configuration data. The product is
aimed at DSL modem upgrades to a router, not for a "router for
router" swap, as I was attempting.

I cleared the old configuration data on the PC and lo and behold
the CD instructions worked and I'm back on line.

BTW, the timeout issue has gone away (subject of OP)!
I can post data if anyone is interested.

I hope this is not a one time win, and that my PC and DSL
service will be working again tomorrow without rebooting...

Thanks again to everyone that posted suggestions!
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