Nuts and Bolts

This is the place for any magazine-related discussions that don't fit in any of the column discussion boards below.
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haklesup
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Post by haklesup »

Any idea how i can verify what sizes these are without buying any
new hardware?
Well, you might need to buy something but its not more bolts and will proove useful again in the future.

I have 2 tools that could do this.

One came with my tap and die set. Its a thread pitch gauge. It looks a lot like a feeler gauge (think spark plug gaps) but each leaf has a sort of comb cut into one side that I can match up beside a bolt or inside a nut.

The second tool is a flat piece of stainless steel about 2"x4" and has a bunch of holes of varying diameter drilled in it and each has a different thread tapped into it. Each hole is labeled on a silkscreen or etched legend. I have often seen something like this only larger in the hardware isle at many HW stores and sometimes even at the checkout so the cashier can know what bolt it is and sku# to use. The ones in the store often also have bolts incorporated so you can gauge nuts as well as bolts.

This second tool very much resembles one used to check the diameter of drill bits, only that tool does not have the holes tapped, they are smooth bore.

Sorry, I got confused, what was the conclusion, poor tolerance on SAE sized nuts and bolts or a mixture of English and metric parts?

Aside from poor tolerance, I find these bargain bolts to be quite soft and easily stripped, cross threaded or snapped. Often they are mostly zinc and not hardened steel at all. Good for fixing a missing bolt on a gas BBQ but not for holding the alternator in my car for example.
Robert Reed
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Post by Robert Reed »

" Len & Robert:
Yeah the lumber sizes have always been 'interesting' ha ha.
Everything is always undersize. I think the last time they
made a 2x4 that was actually 2x4 was 100 years or more ago."

Lumber thickness size has always been graded on the 'Quarter System.' Each Quarter = 1/4 inch, and that is measured in the rough sawn thickness right from the sawmill. Subsequent planing and sanding remove enough material to get a smooth finish and it ends up thinner, but is still called a "1 by" or "2 by" as relating two its former thickness even though now it is 3/4 or 1 1/2 inch. However, when I buy furniture grade hardwood, it always come from the mill at some what thicker than the Quarter system would indicate. For example I can easily finish off the surface of 4 quarter material to 7/8 0r 15/16 and it is ready for cabinet making. But with the low quality of todays construction lumber (white pine,etc.) they almost have to gobble off more wood in the finishing process or they would have to reject 30% of the 'finished' material due to imperfections still remaining.
And MrAl, you are right about the old 2x4s. Having remodeled one of our older lake homes, in the gutting process we discovered all the studs were a full 2' x 4' and hard wood to boot. What a miserable job - hard to nail and all additions had to be shimmed to match.
Oops- sorry for getting so far off topic!
Dean Huster
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Post by Dean Huster »

MrAl:
Modern metric thread specifications always take the form "M#-n" where # is the major diameter in millimeters (and some references say nominal diameter vs. major) and n is the thread pitch in millimeters. Thread pitch notation is optional if the pitch is coarse. So "M8" implies a coarse pitch of 1.25 mm. If a fine pitch is specified, the specification will read "M8-1.0"

Dean
Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon
Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines).

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MrAl
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Post by MrAl »

Ceasar:
Yeah ha ha, a new thread thread, which shows that reusing English words
isnt always a good idea (thread now also stands for a linked group
of bulletin board posts as these are).

haklesup:
Does that thread pitch gauge work for very small threads too? This is
something i might look into getting because this turned out to be
a pain, and same problem with my monitor in the other thread.\

I think the conclusion now has changed a little because i found out that
i was estimating the thread pitch incorrectly somehow. I found a better
way now although it is not easy to do. What i do now is line up a bolt
with a ruler (it has to be a good ruler too or this wont work right)
and look at the first thread with a magnifier (eye loop). I then carefully
hold the bolt steady against the ruler and move the eye loop down the
threads counting the threads until i reach 1 inch exactly (the 1 inch mark).
If the last thread aligns perfectly with the 1 inch mark and i counted
32 threads then i would assume 32 threads per inch, but if the last thread
peak is even 1/4 of a thread width (peak of one to peak of the next one)
short i call it 0.8 pitch instead. This allowed me to tell the difference
between the 32TPI standard thread pitch and the 0.8mm metric thread pitch.
I then went back and used the same technique to measure the other threads
too and found that the smaller size was M4-0.7 and im sure of that now.
I also ran to Home Depot again and picked up some M4-0.7 screws and they
are the same too. Since i checked these over i was able to determine that
they are both metric sizes, it's just very very hard to tell the difference
between the 32TPI and 0.8mm pitches because they only differ by 0.25 of
a thread distance over a 1 inch span, and the 10-32 nuts fit the M5-0.8
bolts too, just a little tight at first, then loosen up as they are turned
and backed off a few times.
I'll have to keep in mine the limited strength and use them for apps that
are not that important too i guess, thanks for the suggestion.

Robert:
Yeah that's what i found too, that the very old homes were built with REAL
two by four's ha ha. I had that same problem a few times with adding sheetrock
when the original material was lath and plaster...the newer construction
had to be shimmed out to meet the bigger older lumber sizes so the walls
would look smooth. Also, i found many constructions to be built with the
studs on 2 foot centers instead of 16 inches like they are now, and some
had to be shimmed to the side too because they didnt reach to 2 feet exactly
but where off a little so the new material didnt match up right. Geeze.

Dean:
Oh ok thanks. That means that M4 implies M4-0.7, which is good to know.
I guess they assumed that in the manual for my monitor too, but more about
that thread in that other thread :smile:
After all this pain in the neck stuff i am thinking of looking for one
of those thread gauges or something anyway. I never had this problem
before because i used all standard thread stuff.
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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haklesup
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Post by haklesup »

Here is a picture of my gauge. It is English and has 14 pitches from 10tpi to 40tpi.


Image

I couldn't find a link to one by itself but you can get one of each (english and metric) in a cheap tap and die kit from Harbor Freight like this one
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=35407
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evahle
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screw gauge

Post by evahle »

MrAl, I have the same gauge as well, and I have another from Sears that works pretty good too.

You can look at it here:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 921x00003a

evahle :smile:
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MrAl
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Post by MrAl »

Thanks hackle and evahle...


One question for both of you here, have you ever tried to tell
the difference between a 32TPI SAE thread and a 0.8 pitch
metric thread with any type of measuring gauge?
I find that they are so close that you really need at least
1 inch of threads to tell the difference, but maybe you have
found something else?
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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haklesup
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Post by haklesup »

No, I have not. Usually I know if an assembly uses metric or english ahead of time. I have never tried to sort out a batch of unknown mixed nuts and bolts. In general, in the US most hardware I come across is all english except what it already built into something with the notable exception of the vesa mount for flat TVs and monitors.

I haven't actually tried it but I might use an electronic caliper and jam the pointed end into two threads perhaps 10 apart and see if it comes up with a round number in metric or english mode. Mind you, I haven't puzzled out the math to make sense of it either. I post it as not more than a tip.

Not sure what you would use for super fine threads often used for portable device assembly hardware. or even a good place to get such tiny screws.

Note that a properly pitched and diameter screw will still have trouble fitting some nuts if the grooves are not deep enough. An example of poor tolerance. The tapped metal plate is probably a more percise tool for sizing bolts even though its markings were more cryptic.

Are you bored, It might be entertaining to see what a home depot employee has to say about it. Better yet, take it to radio shack.
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MrAl
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Post by MrAl »

haklesup wrote:No, I have not. Usually I know if an assembly uses metric or english ahead of time. I have never tried to sort out a batch of unknown mixed nuts and bolts. In general, in the US most hardware I come across is all english except what it already built into something with the notable exception of the vesa mount for flat TVs and monitors.

I haven't actually tried it but I might use an electronic caliper and jam the pointed end into two threads perhaps 10 apart and see if it comes up with a round number in metric or english mode. Mind you, I haven't puzzled out the math to make sense of it either. I post it as not more than a tip.

Not sure what you would use for super fine threads often used for portable device assembly hardware. or even a good place to get such tiny screws.

Note that a properly pitched and diameter screw will still have trouble fitting some nuts if the grooves are not deep enough. An example of poor tolerance. The tapped metal plate is probably a more percise tool for sizing bolts even though its markings were more cryptic.

Are you bored, It might be entertaining to see what a home depot employee has to say about it. Better yet, take it to radio shack.
Hee hee, that would be funny.

I've never run into this problem before either because i also use
mostly SAE stuff, but what happened is when i got that bargain bunch
of nuts and bolts i started to ask, "What threads are these", and
so ended up here, trying to tell the difference between two different
standards that are extremely close. Then i ran into the application
with the LCD panel mounting, so i had to look into this in detail.
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evahle
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screw gauge

Post by evahle »

Hi MrAl. Actually I run into these problems on an occasion. If the threads are that close, I go get a bigger screwdriver and turn it into an SAE! LOL.

evahle :smile:
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Post by Dean Huster »

SAE/English/Imperial/U.S. Customary -- whatever -- threads are also sorted into manufacturing tolerance, "1", "2" and "3". "1" is the loosest fit between nut and bolt, used where there's a good possiblity of rust and a lot of dirt in the threads. "2" is the most common, typical of the stuff you find at the hardware store. "3" is a tight fit between mating parts. The least amount of rust or dirt and you'll have a heck of a time getting the treads started into each other and end up needing tools just to run the nut down the bolt! The finer the threads, the worse the "effect".

A "full bore" thread specification would look something like this:

10-32 UNC 2A or 3/16-32 UNC 2A or 0.1875-32 UNC 2A where,

The major diameter is listed first (either as a number for machine screws, a fraction or a decimal (today's preference); threads-per-inch; thread form (UNC is Unified coarse vs. square, knuckle, acme, whitworth, etc.); 2 is the fit as mentioned above; A indicates an external thread (e.g., a bolt vs. a nut). After that, two things are assumed: that the thread is a right-hand thread and that it is a single thread (vs. double or triple). In addition a pitch diameter (in limits tolerance form) is often specified on machining drawings.

When I see the quality of Harbor Freight products, I take pause and wonder, "Do I want a measuring standard for something I'm having lots of problems with to be of questionable Chinese import?"

What gets interesting is when you get into an argument with some folks over threads. I had one guy insist that the old Amphenol microphone connector had the same thread as the UHF connector common with CB and ham radio equipment. Just because he was able to get the collar of a Chinese import PL-259 to thread onto one of his Chinese import microphone connectors wasn't a good test at all. The mic connector only has maybe two or three threads total and being imported meant that it was of sloppy tolerance anyway. I couldn't get a true-blue Amphenol mic connector and a Switchcraft UHF connector to mate at all! They shouldn't, because the threads are different. The mic connector is 5/8-27 while the UHF connector is 5/8-24. The more threads available for mating, the quicker you'll see them bind.

Dean
Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon
Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines).

R.I.P.
Robert Reed
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Post by Robert Reed »

Hmmmm - I am finding this thread very interesting :grin:
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MrAl
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Post by MrAl »

Hi again,

evahle:
Oh yeah ok, he he, that's what i did with a 10-32 nut on a 0.8 pitch metric screw.
It was tight, but after a few turns this way and back it fit good.

Dean:
I am beginnging to think there are wayyy too many thread types out there.
Might be interesting to compile a list of all of them, or most.

Robert:
For me too! I see now that some threads will be hard to tell apart if the
screw length is short like a quarter inch, and one other interesting thing
that Dean made me realize is that if i had a screw that i thought was 10-32
and used it with a nut that was 10-32 but it was really an M5-0.8 screw and it
was long, if i later decided to use it for something else and that other
app had threads that were maybe 1 inch deep (instead of just the nut depth)
that screw would bind before it went into all the threads! That would be
a surprise i think. I guess that would make a good test too, as long as
the screw was long enough to bind before it fit all the way in.
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Dean Huster
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Post by Dean Huster »

Buy an 8-32 UNC and a 10-32 UNC tap and tap a couple of holes (using the specified tap drill, of course) into some thick copper or brass, maybe 3/8" thick. Then you should have an internal thread long enough that the "wrong" thread will bind in it.

I have both SAE and ISO thread tables at hand here. Can e-mail a scan to anyone who requests either or both. Also have the tap drill specs for both.

Dean
Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon
Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines).

R.I.P.
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MrAl
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Post by MrAl »

Hi Dean,

Yes, good idea! I might do this so next time it's a lot faster to tell
the difference. I have a good micrometer but it's a little difficult
to line up the start and end threads perfectly to get a good measurement.
Thanks again.
LEDs vs Bulbs, LEDs are winning.
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