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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Redacted due to duplicaton!
Is there no way to delete a post???



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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:46 am
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The electrical code may allow outlets to be installed ground plug facing up, down or sideways but, the ground plug is typically down in the United States unless you live in Canada.


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:05 pm 
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perhaps it is a philosophical thing but the reasoning behind ground up is that if a metal object were to fall against the wall and dislodge the plug, it would hit the ground prong and be stopped from shorting or electrifying the object. Of course that is moot if you are using an ungrounded plug as is frequently the case.

I know, I know, I can't remember that ever happening either. It's a flimsy argument

As long as it is consistent throughout a given house, it does not cause much confusion

And with regards to the LED staying on, it sounds like you unwittingly fixed a short circuit somewhere, I would inspect the wire nuts, switch terminals and insulation on the wires adjacent to that fixture to make sure they are securely nutted and all exposed wire is covered. Another explanation is that the switch was bad but recent fiddling caused it to self correct. Maybe just replace the wall switch as preventative maintenance.


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Correct. The code does not generally mention device positions, but it does refer to required locations.
Up, down, left, right, ceiling, floor, inside, outside are all acceptable as long as they are installed properly and in the right enclosure.

Traditionally, ground is down but it appears that impaired persons may find it easier to insert a plug if they can see the ground pin as a reference.



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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Lenp wrote:

Unless you live near Roswell NM, the LED must be getting power from someplace. I doubt that, unless you are next to a big transmitting antenna, you will light the LED. A CFL is more likely to light than a LED.



Len,

A long time ago when I had a novice amateur ticket, I ran a 50 watt CW transmitter into an end-fed longwire for a test. After putting out a couple dit-dahs, I realized that the light in the next room was going to maybe a quarter brightness on key down. It was a 60W, incandescent buib. The switch of that bulb was off, just like in the current case, but there was a good run of copper to the bulb from the switch, and it was pretty much parallel to my longwire that was hanging out of the bedroom window. Needless to say, that antenna setup didn't last long. I didn't have much of a tuner (cheap homemade stuff).

Ah - the good ole days.

- Ron


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:12 pm 
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haklesup wrote:
And with regards to the LED staying on, it sounds like you unwittingly fixed a short circuit somewhere, I would inspect the wire nuts, switch terminals and insulation on the wires adjacent to that fixture to make sure they are securely nutted and all exposed wire is covered. Another explanation is that the switch was bad but recent fiddling caused it to self correct. Maybe just replace the wall switch as preventative maintenance.


Perhaps you're right. It still hasn't come back on (with switch off). I just replaced that switch about a year ago, so it's not old. I'll probably just change it out again to be safe.


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:46 am
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The outlet should always be oriented ground pin down, because many common household items such as nightlights, timers and battery chargers. Should have a ground pin down orientation outlet. GFCI outlets which have text on the reset and test buttons are oriented with the ground pin down (Safety First)


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:31 am 
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^^And as in the case with my refrigerator power cord, the hot and neutral blades are at the tip of the plug while the ground is in line with the cord. The outlet for the fridge is about 3-1/2' -4' up on the wall and requires the plug be oriented with ground toward the floor, otherwise the cord would be bent in half and continously stressed until the insulation would crack.

In my neck of the woods, the "upside down" placement was common in the early to mid 90's. Nowadays they are back to the traditional ground down position.

CeaSaR



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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Hospitals and health facilities are ground up.

An explanation I heard a long ago was... If the cover plate becomes loose by whatever reason and it is metallic, it could hit the ground prong when slides down. If it was reversed, would hit phase and neutral of the plug prongs giving some fireworks. Or if some plug is partially inserted, any metallic part falling onto the partially exposed prongs will likely hit...

I do not like/find such explanation exciting, but hey!, that is what I heard. :shock:

If any appliance has its plug the wrong way stressing the cable, I invert the outlet no matter what code says.



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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:34 pm 
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the hospital thing is probably the root of the logic I heard. I suppose it happened once and then lawyers got involved with building code.


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:57 am 
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Lenp wrote:
Now let's recap a bit and put it together...
Some of these are interrelated so they are not in a logical order, but here are some points to ponder.

Unless you live near Roswell NM, the LED must be getting power from someplace. I doubt that, unless you are next to a big transmitting antenna, you will light the LED. A CFL is more likely to light than a LED.

You say that the LED is still dim when the branch circuit breaker is off. Have you tried other branch breakers, or the main breaker? What happens? Take the wire off the branch breaker and check for any voltage to ground. There should be none. Check the removed wire for voltage to ground, there should be none. Checking the wire resistance to ground is useless unless you are absolutely sure there are no loads still connected, If there are, you will read through the load to neutral and to ground,
Ground the wire removed from the breaker Is the LED still dim or is it off?

If you find any voltage, consider that the Sparky that wired the house may have used some illogical scheme to connect the circuits. In some older houses ceiling lights were often connected to other ceiling lights or outlets. Something may be amiss with a device in another room and that may be the problem.
Maybe the circuit is connected with outside wiring that may be damp and causing leakage. GFCI’s are a good place to be suspicious since they are often mixed in a box with non GFCI circuits.
...

Is this a home run circuit of NM cable, or is it grouped with others (looking for induction/capacitance)
Possibly a conduit installation is involved which are notorious for ‘stray’ voltages with a high impedance meter.

...

Worse case…..move!


Hi Len: Today the hall light came back on! Not only that, but a light in another area (also LED) came on as well, with the switches off. As to your questions:

1) I disconnected the branch from the breaker, and it measured 0 volts. The light was out in either switch position. Dittos with new light in the other area (it's on a separate branch).

2) Yes, the house is wired with NM cable.

I guess it's not related to the rain. It poured cats and dogs yesterday. The last time the light was on, we'd had a three week dry spell. It takes about twenty seconds for the light to get to its (maybe -quarter) brightness. It slowly ramps up.

- Ron, Roswell NM.


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:39 am 
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To recap on fairness,
- you forgot the title... "LED stays on sometimes"
- Even in Roswell, power has to come from somewhere.

When the LEDs are faintly on... have you checked if other switches, appliances are in a different state than when they are when LEDs are off ?
Try switching/deenergizing/energizing other house AC lines that may apparently be unrelated to the 'phenomena'

Everything has an explanation. My night light on a bed headboard has done the same since purchased. And it is powered by a non-grounded 'lamp' 2xAWG18 cord. :shock: I have not investigated deep into it as its housing is sort of 'unopenable', in a extrusion aluminium housing, like an undercabinet fixture.

Again, is that hall light in a 'three way' switching wiring ? -Two switches controlling that lamp-
The Romex NM capacitance is key... Yes, switching certain breaker off will turn the weird lamp off. Power does come from somewhere.



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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:00 am 
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Externet wrote:
To recap on fairness,
- you forgot the title... "LED stays on sometimes"

- Even in Roswell, power has to come from somewhere.

When the LEDs are faintly on... have you checked if other switches, appliances are in a different state than when they are when LEDs are off ?
Try switching/deenergizing/energizing other house AC lines that may apparently be unrelated to the 'phenomena'

...



I switched every other breaker in the house to the "off" position, and the LED still lights. Dittos for the latest breaker branch (the new, additional light that is glowing). I did some googling, and it seems this is a very common occurance:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... w-when-off

The LEDs can glow with only microamps of current. One message in the linked forum post indicated that just touching some piece of metal to the input of these LED lights can make them glow from close-by AC voltages. The only question I have now is why it's intermittent.


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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Ronaldlees wrote:
I switched every other breaker in the house to the "off" position, and the LED still lights.


Why 'every other' ?

I said appliances, switches, other AC lines. Leave all breakers on.

And again, is that hall light in a 'three way' switching wiring ? -Two switches controlling that lamp-



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 Post subject: Re: LED stays on 24/7
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:54 pm 

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I think he meant "All the other breakers..."

An unusual posibility I've been hesitant to say -
Does the LED bulb glow when the room is dark?
No? Then maybe -
White LEDs are really blue LEDs with florescent coating inside the lens. Is there light with strong blue component in the room? (beam of sun light, bright white florescent) The blue in this light is triggering the phosphers in the white LED.

Florescent bulbs don't display this "glow without electricity" because they are ultraviolet inside instead of blue.



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